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  1. #1
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Default How is attacking welfare and government going to change anything?

    Give the excellent video on the world economic crisis which was posted a short while ago I question how anyone can continue to treat Ron Paul and libertarianism with any credibility, their solution to the worlds ills is to attack welfare and government, so what? Even if it was realised its not going to remedy the fundamental contradictions in the economy which are causing it to break down repeatedly.

    Where's your end game if you're a libertarian, how are you going to sort out the economy when you cant simply complain about government and welfare anymore and you've strengthened the oligarchs and corporations into something like a terror state in all but name?

  2. #2
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Welfare and government are parasits. They are responsibles of the economic crises. The more we attack it, the best it is.

    Simple.
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  3. #3
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Welfare and government are parasits. They are responsibles of the economic crises. The more we attack it, the best it is.

    Simple.
    They only are insofar as you can rebuild the system from zero. If you want to start with what we have now, first you need to attack all the related wasted (i.e. high parcels to polician's friends firms for building hospitals, social housing, etc.). I don't think abolishing welfare will create a better society, the transition has to be smooth, this way self-organizing "welfare" initiatives can form.

    Otherwise you end up like today's Russia, which is IMHO definitely a model not to be followed.
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  4. #4
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    They only are insofar as you can rebuild the system from zero. If you want to start with what we have now, first you need to attack all the related wasted (i.e. high parcels to polician's friends firms for building hospitals, social housing, etc.). I don't think abolishing welfare will create a better society, the transition has to be smooth, this way self-organizing "welfare" initiatives can form.

    Otherwise you end up like today's Russia, which is IMHO definitely a model not to be followed.
    Probably, but "attacking" is not the same thing than "abolishing" brutaly.
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  5. #5
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Probably, but "attacking" is not the same thing than "abolishing" brutaly.
    Yeah, government spending is also a highly resistant budget block, so perhaps a political attack from a relatively low % side is needed, there has to be some real opposition.
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    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Yeah, government spending is also a highly resistant budget block, so perhaps a political attack from a relatively low % side is needed, there has to be some real opposition.
    A very modest welfare state coud be acceptable I think, if it was truly directed toward the weakest, thoses you never could take care of themselves and can't rely on their relatives, combined of course with private charity. But welfare state is basically a cake which is prone to be biger and bigger because in a social democracy everyones is encouraged to take a part, and this has reached a problematic climax in industrialised countries.
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    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  7. #7
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    The abolishment of welfare is foolish, nothing more than the ideals of those who like to think that all poor people are just lazy, and not victims of the socio-economic system that screws them over. Welfare is a basic necessity of any modern civilized society that actually cares for its worst off citizens.

    And unless all people were completely compassionate people, I might just call myself a libertarian completely, but even I know that you can't fully trust the masses just as you fully can't trust the government. I'm willing to have government runed organizations dedicated to the common good of the people, organizations that assist people when needed because that's what any decent society would do. And this is coming from a guy whom loathes government and bureaucratic control; I'd still be willing to limit government power as much as possible, but there still need to be some branches of it for the benefit of everyone.

  8. #8
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Most libertarians (other than the relatively rare anarcho-capitalists) aren't anti-government. The state is a necessity. The question is what are its appropriate functions. Insisting that people are making arguments they aren't is dishonest.
    You lose.

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  9. #9
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    There's an old adage that the only way to prove a fool wrong is to let him have his way. Libertarians have a great defense because their way is impossible, so they can never be proven wrong. You're never going to so completely strip the government of involvement in the economy that isn't still enough involvement for libertarians to targets as the problem. Given complete power, they'd bend society in one direction for eternity.

    I've spent so much time at this point arguing with libertarians that I've heard quite a lot of explanations as to how the no tax, no spending, no regulation society is supposed to right our wrongs. Of course it all seems dubious to me, and ultimately I still think what libertarians have the greatest abundance of is faith.


    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    Most libertarians (other than the relatively rare anarcho-capitalists) aren't anti-government. The state is a necessity. The question is what are its appropriate functions. Insisting that people are making arguments they aren't is dishonest.
    Yeah, but libertarians are generally against government social spending, are they not? They are also typically against government control of finance, from taxes, to business regulations, to subsidies. Am I correct? Perhaps, at best, they will allow smaller, local governments to take care of those things, but they might, and they certainly never let a federal government do that.
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  10. #10
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Yeah, but libertarians are generally against government social spending, are they not? They are also typically against government control of finance, from taxes, to business regulations, to subsidies. Am I correct? Perhaps, at best, they will allow smaller, local governments to take care of those things, but they might, and they certainly never let a federal government do that.
    Nobody but the most extremist libertarians thinks you can run a state without collecting tax. When it comes to business regulation, that isn't quite right either. Libertarians tend to prefer a court-oriented, common law method of resolving dispute. Instead of an EPA, sue polluters, for example. Misstating things either shows ignorance, or again, dishonesty. Which is it?
    You lose.

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