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  1. #11
    Senior Member durentu's Avatar
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    welfare is good so long as I can choose who I can buy it from and the freedom to cancel.

    with government welfare, I cannot choose (monopoly), and I cannot cancel my welfare policy (theft).
    "People often say that this or that person has not yet found himself. But the self is not something one finds; it is something one creates." - Thomas Szasz

  2. #12
    Senior Member Snoopy22's Avatar
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    Libertarians range as much as Democrats or Republicans, Zell Miller could have passed as a Republican in the US Northeast and many Northeast Republicans are considered as Democrats to certain States in the US West (this does not take into account some of the ways these labels are transposed in Countries outside of the US).

    The above has nothing related to the OP question; I have no ideal of how much power in the political arena Libertarians have in Ireland. In the United States they have none so any of their views are hypothetical (the American west in the 1800s might be considered a form of Libertinism government, and it contained forms of taxation and social safety systems.

  3. #13
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    Most libertarians (other than the relatively rare anarcho-capitalists) aren't anti-government. The state is a necessity. The question is what are its appropriate functions. Insisting that people are making arguments they aren't is dishonest.
    THANK YOU!

    It's incredibly frustrating to read arguments against Libertarian ideas when most of the time those ideas are misrepresented. I'm a registered Libertarian but I'm a far cry from an Anarcho-capitalist.
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  4. #14
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    Nobody but the most extremist libertarians thinks you can run a state without collecting tax. When it comes to business regulation, that isn't quite right either. Libertarians tend to prefer a court-oriented, common law method of resolving dispute. Instead of an EPA, sue polluters, for example. Misstating things either shows ignorance, or again, dishonesty. Which is it?
    The problem with the abolition of the EPA in favor of a court-oriented system is that it would basically hand "justice" to those with the wealth to purchase it. I don't like the current system, but the typical libertarian idea that a more court-oriented system will be more fair is pure fantasy because law suits cost money (in the real world). This is one area where I know I diverge from many libertarians.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #15
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    How is attacking welfare and government going to change anything?
    @Lark

    Have a look at The Conservative Answer to Liberal complaints and find out.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I see you've turned a corner from the whole we're all in this together, lets all get along and have a consensus angle on things.

    I've read Russell Kirk's anthology on conservatism, I've read Nisbet's books on conservatism and that's just the tip of the ice berg, so I know the reasons why conservatives think what they do, in fact I probably know as much or more about what they think what they do than any other political ideology, with perhaps the exception of some of the neo-liberals because, well, same as conservatism they are the real opinion formers and trending opinions.

    It still isnt going to make any difference, beating up on the poor, come good times or ill, is a real old tactic and its not supplied the hoped for results, its not like you could even argue the jury is out on it any longer.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I've read Russell Kirk's anthology on conservatism, I've read Nisbet's books on conservatism and that's just the tip of the ice berg, so I know the reasons why conservatives think what they do, in fact I probably know as much or more about what they think what they do than any other political ideology, with perhaps the exception of some of the neo-liberals because, well, same as conservatism they are the real opinion formers and trending opinions.
    The only thing you just told me is that you think you are too smart to have to read the article.

    I'm glad you think your readings on esoteric political theories means that every political opinion you've ever had comes from an unassailable place of rightness, but where I'm from, when someone offers you a different perspective on the problem you at least listen to it.

    In fact, I think it was Aristotle that once said:
    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
    With your appeal to all the Political thinkers you've read, I would think that you consider yours an educated mind.

    But if you're not even willing to entertain the differing perspective I've offered in my thread, you clearly are not.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The only thing you just told me is that you think you are too smart to have to read the article.

    I'm glad you think your readings on esoteric political theories means that every political opinion you've ever had comes from an unassailable place of rightness, but where I'm from, when someone offers you a different perspective on the problem you at least listen to it.

    In fact, I think it was Aristotle that once said:

    With your appeal to all the Political thinkers you've read, I would think that you consider yours an educated mind.

    But if you're not even willing to entertain the differing perspective I've offered in my thread, you clearly are not.
    I didnt tell you that, you attributed that to me, you work in sales right? How's that going? With that sort of thinking style I would have said it was difficult, although I suppose it helps to know people need something before you ask them if you work in sales.

    What I said was nothing to do with being smart, which makes me suspect you've got some closet inferiority or feels of being threatened going on there, what I said was I was already familiar with the material you were bringing to my attention. No point in covering old ground again when I didnt find it persuasive the first couple of times, you know? Time management Disco, useful when you're dividing up your day into things like fitness training.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The only thing you just told me is that you think you are too smart to have to read the article.

    I'm glad you think your readings on esoteric political theories means that every political opinion you've ever had comes from an unassailable place of rightness, but where I'm from, when someone offers you a different perspective on the problem you at least listen to it.

    In fact, I think it was Aristotle that once said:

    With your appeal to all the Political thinkers you've read, I would think that you consider yours an educated mind.

    But if you're not even willing to entertain the differing perspective I've offered in my thread, you clearly are not.
    I didnt tell you that, you attributed that to me, you work in sales right? How's that going? With that sort of thinking style I would have said it was difficult, although I suppose it helps to know people need something before you ask them if you work in sales.

    What I said was nothing to do with being smart, which makes me suspect you've got some closet inferiority or feels of being threatened going on there, what I said was I was already familiar with the material you were bringing to my attention. No point in covering old ground again when I didnt find it persuasive the first couple of times, you know? Time management Disco, useful when you're dividing up your day into things like fitness training.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    That's odd, the forum glitched and that posted a couple of times and I cant delete it now.

    Those arent esoteric political theories Disco, they're pretty major thinkers in US conservative circles, not knowing about them while you provide a link to the equivalent of a political wiki sort of demonstrates ignorance of the sort I would have thought you'd not want to shout about but what do I know, you're maybe all about radical honesty or something.

    You take care now

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