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  1. #61
    Member Inverness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Considering that I am of mixed heritage and grew up around none of them, I have no particular feelings one way or another about the matter. In fact, it's always been a bit difficult to care or understand why other people care about such a thing, on an emotional level at least.
    I share the same sentiments. I think it's interesting that in a social situation it can be a form of initial bond, but much beyond that...it's all just a roll of dice to me. Perhaps I would feel much differently had I really grown up around one heritage or another.
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  2. #62
    Member IntrovertedThinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    This is a matter of interpretation and semantics. If group A is fighting with group B, and there is a lot of prejudicial rhetoric being thrown around as the reason for the conflict, how do we interpret what is the true basis of the conflict? I never argued that ethnicity is not a contributing factor to escalating group conflict; it's just this "basis" business that is the heart of the matter. I assume that when we say the word "basis" we mean something like ultimate underlying cause, and determining that is certainly not the matter of obvious fact that you're making it out to be. There are many theories about prejudice formation and what causes it, and it's not enough to simply assert that "intergroup conflict largely occurs on the basis of ethnic differences."
    This is a much better argument than your previous attempts. I entirely agree that it's very difficult to ascertain the 'true' underlying causes of intergroup conflict, as - like you said - people are often throwing around many claims and resorting to very different behavior. Thus, we could theorize as to what these true causes/factors may actually be in ways that are truly contradictory. Therefore, I suppose I will revise my position and say that, based on my theoretical understanding of intergroup conflict, that ethnicity seems to be a large factor for much of it all across the globe. But most definitely, this is not factual, but merely speculative. Thanks for the input!

    The OP asked a question about whether and how people on this forum integrate their heritage, which I assume is part of their "social identity," into their personal identity. Social identity and self-identity are only separated for the academic purposes of, respectively, macro-level sociological analysis and micro-level psychological analysis. It makes no sense to argue from the macro-level that social identity should be taken out of the formation of self-identity on the micro level.
    Well, I meant social identity with respect to heritage and/or ethnicity. Surely many people accept a social identity based on culture, nationality, or a number of different social factors not entirely tied to ethnicity or heritage, per se. Therefore, I was merely saying that it's only really one's psychological self-identity that really dictates anything about a person (unless of course a person chooses to accept anything external to themselves, despite the fact that many external influences do ultimately shape us anyway). The simple point is just that "ascribed status" (such as ethnicity, if we wish to call it this) means nothing to us. Where you are born, what heritage your belong to, the color of your eyes or skin, ect. None of these "inherent characteristics at birth" really "say anything meaningful" about a person, with regard to their true "character." And, on that basis, I concluded that any type of "pride" on that basis would ultimately be illogical. Yet, even if any pride in anything one does does not seem to control is illogical, there doesn't seem to be any reason to oppose harmless pride as "self-esteem" or "inherent appreciation/recognition." These, as I said, are positive psychological emotions that actually help people feel better about themselves. It's the fanatical, zealous pride in one's heritage to the point of ethnocentric viewpoints, prejudice, and discrimination that really is worth some level of correction. So that's basically all I meant.

    Your argument was based on distinguishing between "recognition" of one's heritage and pride in one's heritage. The former, you asserted, was sufficient to "combat the dominant group's attempts to control subordinate groups." Pride in one's heritage, therefore, is illogical and unnecessary.
    Again, I meant "zealous pride" in one's heritage, to the extent that it's actually "meaningful" in some social context. As I clarified later, there is nothing wrong with pride as a form of self-esteem/recognition of one's origins. Although, I do think a detached recognition of one's heritage is likely sufficient to combat a dominant group's attempts to control a minority group. At no point does one need, I think, either sense of pride (although the self-esteem which comes from the harmless pride could prove very useful).

    Ignoring for a moment the non sequitor inherent in deducing that since recognition of heritage is the minimal one needs to combat race/ethnic-based social injustices, that feeling pride in heritage necessarily does nothing to augment this process...
    No. I do not think that at all. As I just said, while I do not believe pride in heritage to be "necessary" for intergroup equality, I do think it can have beneficial effects for such a process. Sorry if I either said or implied otherwise.

    Even if pride were useless towards that purpose, the only way you could make the argument that its "illogicality" means "you should not do it" is if you assume that pride is equivalent to (or necessarily leads to) prejudice. After all, pointing out that X is illogical is not enough to make the argument that one should not do X, especially when X is a feeling and inherently (i.e., trivially) illogical. You'd have to point out how it's bad, and since you "at no point at all used the word prejudice," I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you must have meant to mention it but forgot.
    Again, I was just saying that "zealous pride" can often lead, I think, to ethnocentrism, xenophobia, excessive patriotism, ethnic stratification, intergroup conflict, and so on and so forth, and that given these potential negative effects, coupled with the fact that there is no logical reason to hold such pride in one's heritage entirely, it just seems imprudent to hold such strong pride in one's heritage, because on some level this pride will likely act as a weakness which potentially leads to further problems. As I see it, this excessive pride in things we cannot control is what largely leads to this giant human chain of perpetual conflict (for a large part, not completely).

    Let's just say that I'll get behind color-blindness just as soon as structures of power and privilege cease to exist.
    Well, that's definitely a rational position. I just value color-blindness as an ideal - not as something we can currently accomplish in any functional fashion. I was just bringing up color-blindness to point out that the notion may very well be favorable to minorities/subordinate groups, if integrated appropriately on some level, so that diversity and color-blindness could be used together to improve conditions, at the very least. But feel free to offer input on that.

    Sure, if by "pride" you mean:
    Pretty much. Feeling as though one's own race or ethnicity, or whatever, is for whatever reason "superior" or "precious" is this entirely zealous pride that I'm talking about.

    I would agree, it's best not to feel that way about anything. As you acknolwedged, though, there is also this type of pride, which I see nothing wrong with:
    Mhm.

    I would disagree, however, that simply having people acknowledge the fact that there is little genetic difference between any of us would lead to decreased in-group, out-group type prejudicial behavior, even those based on race or ethnicity.
    Please elaborate. On what basis do you think humans would still largely stratify society, were people no longer aware of ethnic distinctions?

    Again, if we're talking about zealous and delusional feelings of "pride," then yes, I would of course agree that it is not a good behavior. But again, I would take issue with your attribution of such feelings as the primary cause of "ethnic stratification, intergroup conflict, ethnocentrism, prejudice, xenophobia, and nationalism." Something has to cause such feelings in the first place, and that's a question that has yet to be resolved even in the academic circles to which it is relevant.
    Indeed, indeed. It seems there is still much we do not entirely understand about the nature of ethnic stratification, intergroup conflict, ethnocentrism, xenophobia, and nationalism, so that we cannot entirely say that it's primary cause is zealous pride, given it could easily be something else (perhaps need for power, or something similar, as you said?). So on the whole, very nice posts. Very nice discussion. While I have my "speculative leanings," it seems we can still agree on much about this topic, despite the largely theoretical nature of it.

  3. #63
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Dood. @Elfboy never even came back to define his terms did he?
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  4. #64
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Dood. @Elfboy never even came back to define his terms did he?
    which ones? I sorta forgot about this thread
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  5. #65
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I don't mean to say that being proud of one's heritage is a bad thing, but is their any logical reason behind it?
    - homo sapiens sapiens are are 99.9% identical, in fact, we're practically inbred
    - one doesn't choose what heritage he was born into
    - one's heritage doesn't dictate anything about who she is

    if you are proud of your heritage, why? is their a logical reason? does it just make you feel better? do you feel an obligation to?
    Yes, there is a logical reason for it. It gives some people a sense of belonging to something greater than themselves, and that's something a lot of people crave in our (American) distant, commercialized, individualistic culture. It gives others a sense of superiority. I don't value it, personally. The only thing that would interest me about my ancestry is the story of their migration going all the way back to Africa (~70,000 years ago). I'm not interested in emulating their lives in any way, given that they were probably unremarkable and certainly less intelligent than me.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #66
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    which ones? I sorta forgot about this thread


    Focus EP! Focus!

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I don't mean to say that being proud of one's heritage is a bad thing, but is their any logical reason behind it?
    Define heritage.
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  7. #67
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    And define "proud," since there was more argument about that term.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  8. #68
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    And define "proud," since there was more argument about that term.
    Yeah, seriously @Elfboy.
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  9. #69
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post

    Focus EP! Focus!
    Define heritage.
    don't tell me to focus woman
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  10. #70
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Yes, there is a logical reason for it. It gives some people a sense of belonging to something greater than themselves, and that's something a lot of people crave in our (American) distant, commercialized, individualistic culture. It gives others a sense of superiority. I don't value it, personally. The only thing that would interest me about my ancestry is the story of their migration going all the way back to Africa (~70,000 years ago). I'm not interested in emulating their lives in any way, given that they were probably unremarkable and certainly less intelligent than me.
    Why would you assume this?

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