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  1. #31
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Look, I understand the support for Ron Paul in terms of him being more likely than any other candidate to fight the corrupt mechanisms of our political system, and good on him for that. But I think libertarianism horrible misguided and most of the things he wants to do would be destructive.

    So I'm afraid the fact that he's Mr. Smith going to Washington is not, by itself, a good enough reason to vote for him, since it doesn't compensate for how generally bad a lot of his policies are.



    That takes some of the rudeness out of it but it's still pretty much just as unreasonable.



    Bingo. And while I'm not sure I'd want him shaping the future of the country by himself (which is apparently what people here think the president does), I would rather have him in power than Ron Paul, by a long shot.
    I think it's a marginal utility problem. We would benefit a lot right now from a politician that cuts government power drastically. But too much of that would be bad, so we would eventually need people that can work within existing systems.

  2. #32
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Look, I understand the support for Ron Paul in terms of him being more likely than any other candidate to fight the corrupt mechanisms of our political system, and good on him for that. But I think libertarianism horrible misguided and most of the things he wants to do would be destructive.

    So I'm afraid the fact that he's Mr. Smith going to Washington is not, by itself, a good enough reason to vote for him, since it doesn't compensate for how generally bad a lot of his policies are.



    That takes some of the rudeness out of it but it's still pretty much just as unreasonable.



    Bingo. And while I'm not sure I'd want him shaping the future of the country by himself (which is apparently what people here think the president does), I would rather have him in power than Ron Paul, by a long shot.
    I think it's a marginal utility problem. We would benefit a lot right now from a politician that cuts government power drastically. But too much of that would be bad, so we would eventually need people that can work within existing systems.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Munchies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    I would say that the movement is closer to other figure's ideologies. Bernie Sanders, for example, is not running for president, but his ideology seems very much in line with the most frequent demands of many occupiers. Taxing the super rich, for example, is a common cry from protesters but not something Ron Paul would support.
    The whole 99$ vs 1% thing is a media job, it was never intended to be that way. The whole "tax the rich " thing doesn't make sense. It's like there is no obviouse solution in sight so the idea of taxing the rich seems ok but is completly unreasonable. You can't want to be a part of a capitalistic society and want to tax the rich. It's like being hypocritical. The peasants would not like to taxed if they were rich. Also, it's not even a solution, either way with that policy, the system is still going to crash. The problem is the system itself and taxing the rich is just a diversion of thought. The whole proposition of classwarfare was advertised by mainstream outlets but were NEVER meant to be the prime goal. This protest is a freefor all and anyone can take over. And i garuntee this movement will escalate, with more odds of a leader/celebrety taking action


    IMO
    Right now, capitalism is a really big building. It's foundations are are perpetual growth, or death. It's how the world opperates right now, so yes i can understand that some of his policies are destructive but this worl is a horrible place right now and the only way for something better to come out of it is for the collapse of the current system, and of course rebuild

    there's no use argueing though because events will unfld only then can anyone say i told you so:P
    1+1=3 OMFG

  4. #34
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I think it's a marginal utility problem. We would benefit a lot right now from a politician that cuts government power drastically. But too much of that would be bad, so we would eventually need people that can work within existing systems.
    If by cutting government power you mean lowering taxes and deregulating business, I totally disagree with you.
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  5. #35
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Munchies View Post
    The whole 99$ vs 1% thing is a media job, it was never intended to be that way. The whole "tax the rich " thing doesn't make sense. It's like there is no obviouse solution in sight so the idea of taxing the rich seems ok but is completly unreasonable. You can't want to be a part of a capitalistic society and want to tax the rich. It's like being hypocritical. The peasants would not like to taxed if they were rich. The whole proposition of classwarfare was advertised by mainstream outlets but were NEVER meant to be the prime goal. This protest is a freefor all and anyone can take over. And i garuntee this movement will escalate, with more odds of a leader/celebrety taking action
    I disagree

    Many rich people are perfectly fine with having their tax burden increased

    Taxing the rich actually makes perfect sense because out of all the people who can be taxed, an individual with lots of income and wealth is able to be taxed much more and yet still perform perfectly fine in society. Taxing a billionaire half of his income would make more sense than taxing a peasant half of his income, for example.

    You absolutely can be a part of a capitalist system and want to tax the rich.

    Which capitalist societies DON'T tax the rich?

    This is especially important during a recession/depression, because tax revenue can be used to eliminate unemployment at an alarming rate. See the New Deal, for examples.

  6. #36
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    If by cutting government power you mean lowering taxes and deregulating business, I totally disagree with you.
    No I was being more abstract -- I just mean that the way the government works is they'll create a department to deal with something, but then the people in that department won't ever want to lose their jobs, so they don't really have incentive to fix shit. They'll just say "the problem is actually this other thing, but hey look, we're doing this thing well, you really need two departments". It's just how the bureaucracy works -- the more resources they get, the more they will grow. If we increase taxes, we might solve some problems in the short term, but in the long term, we just get a bigger government and more corruption.

    I think we need to axe the shit out of lots of departments. Deregulation is scary, but in a lot of cases, it's been so long since the market has been fair that we've forgotten competition fixes a lot. In fact, many people blame the "free market" for lots of problems, when the real problem is that they're NOT free markets.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not a straight up libertarian -- I think lots of government programs are necessary and taxes are obviously a part of that. I just think it's gotten wayyy out of control -- the government has more than enough resources already, it's just using them poorly. I'm not even against raising taxes in the short-term, I just think it's not a sustainable strategy.

  7. #37
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Okay, let's chill it with the "Ron Paul is messiah" rhetoric. His views on social issues and foreign policy are appealing, and he seems to be an intelligent, truly genuine individual, but his economic plan is a bit unsettling at best.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  8. #38
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Okay, let's chill it with the "Ron Paul is messiah" rhetoric. His views on social issues and foreign policy are appealing, and he seems to be an intelligent, truly genuine individual, but his economic plan is a bit unsettling at best.
    I think people are excited because he actually seems trustworthy. We're all used to being lied to so much that he looks like a little ray of sunshine on a cloudy day.

  9. #39
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    Paul might be a reasonable person, but the American system is still suffering from the effects of far right policies, built up by the Bush dynasty. His hands off policies would simply allow the country to stay on the far right.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Munchies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    I disagree

    Many rich people are perfectly fine with having their tax burden increased

    Taxing the rich actually makes perfect sense because out of all the people who can be taxed, an individual with lots of income and wealth is able to be taxed much more and yet still perform perfectly fine in society. Taxing a billionaire half of his income would make more sense than taxing a peasant half of his income, for example.

    You absolutely can be a part of a capitalist system and want to tax the rich.

    Which capitalist societies DON'T tax the rich?

    This is especially important during a recession/depression, because tax revenue can be used to eliminate unemployment at an alarming rate. See the New Deal, for examples.
    I think everyone should have the right to their own wealth. Nobody should be taxed half their income. The whole idea on what we do with taxes needs to be reformed. We ship money oversees everywhere. Fight everyone else's battles and go on the offensive towards the 9/11 when a strong defensive shouldve been played. (its an idea disreguard any feelings towards 9/11). USA spends trillions oversees but when money gets tight because of the people running the finances can't think about future occurences; Cuts are made aeverywhere domestically, from cuttign police force and medicare. There has to be a renovation. im not talking about which societies do what and which rich people don't mind being taxed, it's irrelevant. This system is a wreck and people will only realize it when they hit the depression. forsight is nonexistant in the public eye.
    1+1=3 OMFG

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