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  1. #81
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    So your conception of "rights" is primarily of the negative kind?


    There are Positive Rights too for one thing.
    Just name 3 rights

    Name any 3 rights

    3 should be easy

    This will allow us to continue the dialogue with context and mutual understanding

    I would like you to name 3 rights, Peguy

  2. #82
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    So your conception of "rights" is primarily of the negative kind?


    There are Positive Rights too for one thing.
    How is that a negative right? One can do whatever they can do. Where's the negative in that sentence?

    That's the only "right" I can think of that no one could disagree about.

    What other inherent (existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute) rights exist?

  3. #83
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Everybody I don't like is a racist...
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  4. #84
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    In all seriousness, there's conceptions of rights in this thread which indicate thinking hasnt moved on since the days of kings.

    I mean when you guys say government you might as well be saying "the good king" and the "goodness" seems to involve whether or not they concur with your personal values. The same values seem to arise from how you're feeling or what your peers are feeling.
    And these people, (beagryllz, etc) likely refer to themselves as liberals. Liberalism without natural rights isn't liberalism. That's what identifies and relates all the different branches of liberalism and their derivatives together; a belief in natural rights.
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  5. #85
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    And these people, (beagryllz, etc) likely refer to themselves as liberals. Liberalism without natural rights isn't liberalism. That's what identifies and relates all the different branches of liberalism and their derivatives together; a belief in natural rights.
    In that case, I cannot identify as a liberal by your definition

    Could you name three natural, inalienable rights?

  6. #86
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    In that case, I cannot identify as a liberal by your definition

    Could you name three natural, inalienable rights?
    The most well-known of all are probably the rights to life, liberty, and property.

    Of course, if there is no objective standard for living or moral truth, recognizing this does become a bit difficult.
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  7. #87
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    The most well-known of all are probably the rights to life, liberty, and property.

    Of course, if there is no objective standard for living or moral truth, recognizing this does become a bit difficult.
    All three of those things are alienable, not natural

    They are rights, however, all three are enforced (to some degree) by laws passed in societies

  8. #88
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    All three of those things are alienable, not natural

    They are rights, however all three are enforced (to some degree) by laws passed in societies
    They are only acknowledged. They are negative rights, not positive, so there is no need for anything to be provided to anybody for them to exist. Inalienable doesn't mean "inviolable." It means you hold the right no matter what. You always have the right to your property isn't the same as saying it's impossible for your property to be stolen.
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  9. #89
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    They are only acknowledged. They are negative rights, not positive, so there is no need for anything to be provided to anybody for them to exist.
    But we do have many laws in place regarding life, liberty, and property

    Are these laws truly unnecessary?

    Inalienable doesn't mean "inviolable." It means you hold the right no matter what. You always have the right to your property isn't the same as saying it's impossible for your property to be stolen.
    Would it ever be just for a society to violate or revoke these rights?

  10. #90
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    But we do have many laws in place regarding life, liberty, and property

    Are these laws truly unnecessary?
    No, they are not unnecessary because people do violate those rights.

    Would it ever be just for a society to violate or revoke these rights?
    No...before you mention taxes as an example of violating the right to property, it's wrong. Only certain taxes could be interpreted as a violation of that right. Income tax, for example, is questionable, depending on how you view the transaction, whether your presence in the state is voluntary, etc. Sales tax, as another example, does not violate that right, period. You don't buy something, you don't pay any tax. Nothing is taken from you. The right to life isn't as grey as it might appear either, in that life is pretty much only taken by the state when it represents a threat to other life. The right to liberty? Yes, I think that is often violated, and it shouldn't be. But sometimes there's not much you can do about an injustice.
    Last edited by freeeekyyy; 12-14-2011 at 05:45 PM. Reason: fixed
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