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  1. #71
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    You claim that rights can only exist within subjective frameworks. Not only does this goes against every position ever given on rights, it goes against the very concept itself. A right is something that exists irregardless of what the government saids, and this is because this right is in accordance with an ojective moral truth. If it all was subjective, it wouldn't mean anything. You have your concept of justice, I have mine, and basically the government can just in effect do whatever it wants and use whatever argument it wants to justify such.

    Martin Luther King Jr. for one would strongly oppose this notion, as he noted in his "Letter from a Birmingham Jail":


    So once again, if you're trying to argue for civil rights on the grounds that you have presented - you're going to run into some significant problems, and not just in terms of logical coherence. Maybe you need to rethink your basic presumptions or simply ditch the whole civil rights concept altogether and use another one.
    An unjust law is a code that is out of harmony with the moral law. To put it in the terms of St. Thomas Aquinas: An unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal law and natural law.
    Gay marriage: just or unjust?

  2. #72
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    You claim that rights can only exist within subjective frameworks. Not only does this goes against every position ever given on rights, it goes against the very concept itself. A right is something that exists irregardless of what the government saids, and this is because this right is in accordance with an ojective moral truth.
    I don't really care about other people's positions on rights. The appeal to authority is pointless here.

    Let's just forget the word "right" for a second, since we clearly disagree on the meaning. Replace my uses of the word "right" with "pursuit that the government protects".

    I don't see how your definition of "right" describes anything.

    If it all was subjective, it wouldn't mean anything. You have your concept of justice, I have mine, and basically the government can just in effect do whatever it wants and use whatever argument it wants to justify such.
    Isn't that how it is, though? Everyone has their opinions; there's no guarantee that they will match up. If one person calls something an "inherent right", that doesn't have anything to do with whether other people agree, or even whether or not that thing is an inherent right.

    When people call something "inherent", they usually just mean "I believe this is true and people that don't clearly have mental problems".

  3. #73
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Gay marriage: just or unjust?
    Aaaah watch out for that word "marriage"; it will become the basis of the reply...

  4. #74
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm just going to fucking despair at this point.

    Also fuck New Hampshire. I'm glad you mentioned this. I'm NEVER fucking going there.
    I'm sure everyone in New Hampshire is devastated.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #75
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm just going to fucking despair at this point.

    Also fuck New Hampshire. I'm glad you mentioned this. I'm NEVER fucking going there.
    Why do you despair?

  6. #76
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Let's just forget the word "right" for a second, since we clearly disagree on the meaning. Replace my uses of the word "right" with "pursuit that the government protects".
    Changing the mere wording isn't going to change the basic issue here in regards to your conception of rights.

  7. #77
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Why do you despair?
    Because he is defining marriage as "a union between a man and a woman", so according to him, you are misusing the term. It is a consistent stance to take, I guess. But I see this semantic argument taking over this debate far too often. Just concede the word and describe the concept in some other way; that's my advice.

  8. #78
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Changing the mere wording isn't going to change the basic issue here in regards to your conception of rights.
    Would a just society recognize and enforce human rights?

    Or would a just society not recognize and enforce human rights?

  9. #79
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Changing the mere wording isn't going to change the basic issue here in regards to your conception of rights.
    My conception of "rights", according to your definition, is that the only "right" anyone has is to do whatever they can physically do.

    What other rights (your definition) are there?

  10. #80
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    My conception of "rights", according to your definition, is that the only "right" anyone has is to do whatever they can physically do.
    So your conception of "rights" is primarily of the negative kind?

    What other rights (your definition) are there?
    There are Positive Rights too for one thing.

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