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  1. #41
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I mean, rights aren't inherent, are they?
    They are not

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I mean, rights aren't inherent, are they?
    The basic presumption of any conception of civil rights is that they are, or else they're meaningless. They're just privileges the government grants you whenever it sees fit, with the implication they can take them away whenever they see fit as well.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    The basic presumption of any conception of civil rights is that they are, or else they're meaningless.
    Which rights are inherent?

    Women's suffrage?

    Liberty?

    Representation in a court of law?

    Out of the myriad of rights we have, which ones are inherent? Which ones are meaningless?

    They're just privileges the government grants you whenever it sees fit, with the implication they can take them away whenever they see fit as well.
    The government is people

  4. #44
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    You should elaborate on this. Why do you consider this to be nonsense?

    Do you believe that rights should not be enforced by law?
    Legal recognition and enforcement is not what determines a right or its legitimacy.

    If it were it could not be morally objectionable or reprehensible for campaigners to agitate for the reinstatement of the "right" to own others as slaves, instead the right to freedom, to individual sovereignty, is properly so recognised as an inalienable right possessed by all whether the law recognises and upholds it or not.

    The idea that rights are fabricated, invented or just dreamt up is nonsensical, it indicates a kind of gross relativism and cultural or social constructivism which would suggest that all facts of human existence are fables agreed upon. This is probably the natural consequence of the centrality of mind or perception being taken one step too far.

    At a time it wouldnt have been that difficult for people to acknowledge that there where natural laws outside of they themselves or even their understanding or acknowledgement of the same. Research or discovery could improve understanding of the same, so rather than the spirits stopping people simply floating away there is gravity but in either case there is an order, a lawful one, which exists outside of the individual and their perception but research and discovery isnt invention.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    The government is people
    I would like you to elaborate on this, I'm beginning to suspect you're not taking the topic seriously and are just messing about. That's fine if you like but I'll not bother participating because I dont care to be your source of amusement.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Legal recognition and enforcement is not what determines a right or its legitimacy.

    If it were it could not be morally objectionable or reprehensible for campaigners to agitate for the reinstatement of the "right" to own others as slaves, instead the right to freedom, to individual sovereignty, is properly so recognised as an inalienable right possessed by all whether the law recognises and upholds it or not.

    The idea that rights are fabricated, invented or just dreamt up is nonsensical, it indicates a kind of gross relativism and cultural or social constructivism which would suggest that all facts of human existence are fables agreed upon. This is probably the natural consequence of the centrality of mind or perception being taken one step too far.

    At a time it wouldnt have been that difficult for people to acknowledge that there where natural laws outside of they themselves or even their understanding or acknowledgement of the same. Research or discovery could improve understanding of the same, so rather than the spirits stopping people simply floating away there is gravity but in either case there is an order, a lawful one, which exists outside of the individual and their perception but research and discovery isnt invention.
    Excellent post

    Which rights are inalienable?

  7. #47
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    The basic presumption of any conception of civil rights is that they are, or else they're meaningless. They're just privileges the government grants you whenever it sees fit, with the implication they can take them away whenever they see fit as well.
    Just because they're not inherent doesn't mean the government can do whatever they want. (Well, they can, there just might be huge consequences.)

    They might be "inherent" in the sense that they're part of the government's mission statement -- but that's not what I mean by inherent -- I mean, there's nothing "out there" that tells us which rights we have. Unless you want to say "you have the right to do whatever you can do, and you don't have the right to do whatever you can't do". But that would be an argument for gay rights, so I don't know how that would help you.

    Which rights do you perceive as inherent?

  8. #48
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I would like you to elaborate on this, I'm beginning to suspect you're not taking the topic seriously and are just messing about. That's fine if you like but I'll not bother participating because I dont care to be your source of amusement.
    The idea that the government can grant or take away rights is true because the government is formed by and composed of people that inhabit a society

    So, a people could implement a government which recognizes certain rights that were not recognized before.

    For example, before the 1890s women did not have the right to vote, but in the years following they were able to exercise this right. This right is protected by law and enforced by governments.

    I do take this topic seriously

  9. #49
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Which rights are inherent?

    Women's suffrage?

    Liberty?

    Representation in a court of law?

    Out of the myriad of rights we have, which ones are inherent? Which ones are meaningless?
    You're the one arguing about rights, not me. So you answer your own questions.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    You're the one arguing about rights, not me. So you answer your own questions.
    I believe that adults in New Hampshire who are capable of giving consent have the right to be married. This is a right that was asserted by the populace of this democratic society, and is therefore protected by the laws of this society.

    Do you dispute this?

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