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  1. #71
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    It's reported on several places, like this one:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...n_1011601.html

    That essentially, the US Treasury would absorb $72 Billion annually or something like that every year if they just stopped giving the upper 5% of America's wealth the tax breaks they currently have.

    I'm not an expert on anything when it comes to this sort of thing.. but I do know that I'm poor and I'd still be willing to give up at least 1 year of tax returns entirely if it meant that our country got out of debt, schools got the upgrades they desperately need, and healthcare could become available at least to the elderly and minors.

    would something like this really work? Is it just as simple as forgoing tax breaks?
    What tax breaks? I would like to know what they are.

    As far as the capital gains tax rate, it encourages investment.

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  2. #72
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Lots of words but no substance. US manufacturing has been decimated by "free trade". People who used to be able find a job in a factory paying them ~$40-50k per year now work at places like Wal-Mart, making $15-20k per year. This has been great for China, but it has had a cascading negative effect through our society. $

    Desindustrialisation is a myth. The GDP from industry is bigger currently than it was in the 1970s, and that is in strong part because of the opportunities for growth brought by free-trade and the production of an individual worker in a factory is bigger than it was in the 70s. The maufacturing process of a product in a global economy happens in several countries, a product manufactured in China create jobs in USA too. You are not "threatened by the china's industry".

    Families have less financial security, less disposable income. Both parents have to work more often. Parents have less time to spend with their children.


    Actually, the disposable income now is far bigger than it was 30 years ago. The problem is the inflation due to Fed's manipulation and state's indebtedness plus the part of their income that the state racketeer too people is bigger that it was in the past. That's what lower the disposable wealth. The problem is not free market and free-trade, free-market end free-trade are lucks, the problem is, as ususual, the government and that's what you have to lust against.

    Elsewhere, you probably exaggerate the situation, if women work a bit more (wih is in part due to femininsm), there's more tourism and americans who travel than there was in the past, and homescooling is in constant growth, wich implies that parents spend more time with their children, and a americans spend more money for their wealth than they spent in the past, good clues that what you describe are another myth.
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  3. #73
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    LOL, your characterization of the issue is what gives you away. You obviously get some sort of satisfaction out of it because you are displaying such strong negative feelings for people who aren't "adults".
    Strong negative feelings? Sounds like someone's projecting their own emotional response onto my posts...


    Simple cost/benefit analysis would show that it's far cheaper to alter tariffs to promote domestic production than to somehow brainwash 300 million people (if that were even possible). People aren't just going to buy domestic products because someone named Jenephor on a random internet forum thinks they're childish for not doing it. You haven't done anything but insult large groups of people for acting in a way millions of years of evolution programmed them to act.
    Ah yes, it makes far more sense to violate the terms and conditions of the WTO and free trade agreements, leaving the U.S. open to trade sanctions from over 153 member countries which include the majority of developed and developing nations. The economic Einstein, you're not...

    No, it would be gross negligence to implement a plan without knowing the ramifications. It's not grossly negligent to talk about it. What a silly position to take.
    It is gross negligence to even suggest it without any information much like suggesting the U.S. population below poverty level go get themselves jobs so they're not below the threshold. Pretty much the height of ignorance and ignorance to that degree is dangerous.

    That said, China only holds ~$1 trillion of US debt. The Fed has created $7.7 trillion since 2008. If China retaliated by threatening to dump their US debt holdings, what impact would it really have? I won't say it would be negligible, but I think people greatly exaggerate the potential threat. The Fed is a greater threat to the stability of the dollar than China.
    Wrong. As at Sept. 2011, China (including Hong Kong) hold over $1.257 trillion of the public debt as published by the Feds. But it's not only China that's concerning when it comes to WTO trade sanctions. If you refer to the linked list, based solely on major foreign holders (emphasis on major of which there are more minor holders not being listed), they appear to hold over 30% of the U.S. public debt. Now match this list to the membership of the WTO. Pissing off the WTO would NOT be advisable, never mind the lack of infrastructure within the U.S. to handle trade sanctions and worse yet, embargoes.

    Don't make me break out the list of major import and export partners for the U.S. and the impacts to the U.S. to take foolish and ignorant trade tariff actions.

    It's too late. The U.S. doesn't stand alone anymore but it will if it violates international trade agreements.

  4. #74
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Desindustrialisation is a myth. The GDP from industry is bigger currently than it was in the 1970s, and that is in strong part because of the opportunities for growth brought by free-trade and the production of an individual worker in a factory is bigger than it was in the 70s. The maufacturing process of a product in a global economy happens in several countries, a product manufactured in China create jobs in USA too. You are not "threatened by the china's industry".
    Absolutely. A product manufactured in China creates lots of new jobs at companies like Wal-Mart. They can always use more greeters.

    I'd like to see your data that shows that US GDP from manufacturing in the 1970s is less than today when adjusted for inflation and population growth.

    Actually, the disposable income now is far bigger than it was 30 years ago. The problem is the inflation due to Fed's manipulation and state's indebtedness plus the part of their income that the state racketeer too people is bigger that it was in the past. That's what lower the disposable wealth. The problem is not free market and free-trade, free-market end free-trade are lucks, the problem is, as ususual, the government and that's what you have to lust against.
    /facepalm So what you're saying is that disposable income is higher in absolute numbers, and the only reason the buying power is less is because of the Fed? You're saying that if the Fed didn't inflate the currency, wages would still be exactly where they are? Are you nuts?
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  5. #75
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Strong negative feelings? Sounds like someone's projecting their own emotional response onto my posts...
    Denial. You've used extremely strong and personal language in all of your responses. Perhaps you're just not consciously aware of your strong feelings.

    Ah yes, it makes far more sense to violate the terms and conditions of the WTO and free trade agreements, leaving the U.S. open to trade sanctions from over 153 member countries which include the majority of developed and developing nations. The economic Einstein, you're not...
    Who said anything about violating the terms of WTO agreements? Who says those terms cannot be renegotiated? You're making a lot of assumptions here.

    It is gross negligence to even suggest it without any information much like suggesting the U.S. population below poverty level go get themselves jobs so they're not below the threshold. Pretty much the height of ignorance and ignorance to that degree is dangerous.
    The "height of ignorance and ignorance to that degree is dangerous"? I think this is called hyperbole.

    Wrong. As at Sept. 2011, China (including Hong Kong) hold over $1.257 trillion of the public debt as published by the Feds. But it's not only China that's concerning when it comes to WTO trade sanctions. If you refer to the linked list, based solely on major foreign holders (emphasis on major of which there are more minor holders not being listed), they appear to hold over 30% of the U.S. public debt. Now match this list to the membership of the WTO. Pissing off the WTO would NOT be advisable, never mind the lack of infrastructure within the U.S. to handle trade sanctions and worse yet, embargoes.
    Did you know the "~" represents "approximately"? Regardless, whether it's $1 trillion or $1.2 trillion, it's small potatoes compared to the $7.7 trillion the Fed has created in the last 3 years.

    Who says there will be WTO sanctions? Who says that it would be impossible to get the EU to go along with this new tariff strategy? Apparently you do. That's the impression I get. If anyone is projecting, it's you. Maybe if you were in charge, you would make policy adjustments unilaterally, but I wouldn't. I think others could be convinced to go along with it.

    Don't make me break out the list of major import and export partners for the U.S. and the impacts to the U.S. to take foolish and ignorant trade tariff actions.

    It's too late. The U.S. doesn't stand alone anymore but it will if it violates international trade agreements.
    Oh, please do "break out" the list of major import and export partners. HAHAHA, you're so hardcore.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #76
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Denial. You've used extremely strong and personal language in all of your responses. Perhaps you're just not consciously aware of your strong feelings.
    Projection =/= denial.


    Who said anything about violating the terms of WTO agreements? Who says those terms cannot be renegotiated? You're making a lot of assumptions here.
    Any idea how WTO works and how the agreement is hammered out? If not, start some lurnin'!


    Did you know the "~" represents "approximately"? Regardless, whether it's $1 trillion or $1.2 trillion, it's small potatoes compared to the $7.7 trillion the Fed has created in the last 3 years.
    Weaseling won't change your error or deliberate attempts to mislead. As for the Fed creation of debt, strawman.

    Who says there will be WTO sanctions? Who says that it would be impossible to get the EU to go along with this new tariff strategy? Apparently you do. That's the impression I get. I anyone is projecting, it's you. Maybe if you were in charge, you would make policy adjustments unilaterally, but I wouldn't. I think others could be convinced to go along with it.
    :facepalm:

    Oh, please do "break out" the list of major import and export partners. HAHAHA, you're so hardcore.
    Decided against it until you do more lurnin' about the WTO and international trade agreements.

  7. #77
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    So far as emotions being held... I feel when it comes to things like taxes and the debt of the country, it is a very emotional subject. I don't see why showing them in a thread like this is such a bad thing. I definitely showed mine when referring to the lack of patriotism being a root cause of many problems..

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    What tax breaks? I would like to know what they are.

    As far as the capital gains tax rate, it encourages investment.
    To be honest, I thought that the article was referring to the tax breaks that give big businesses and rich members of society very large tax returns every year. Instead of returning the taxes, I felt like maybe the government should keep them all for a while... Maybe a 5 year plan to pay off some of our debts, upgrade educational facilities and non-profit medical centers.. create more DPS buildings and jobs so that it doesn't take 100 years to get a drivers license and people aren't so stressed at said jobs because of the sheer amount of people there.. etc. etc. etc.
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  8. #78
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Projection =/= denial.

    Any idea how WTO works and how the agreement is hammered out? If not, start some lurnin'!

    Weaseling won't change your error or deliberate attempts to mislead. As for the Fed creation of debt, strawman.
    LOL, deliberate attempts to mislead? Over ~$200 billion when we're talking about several trillion? Seriously? You're going out of your way to assign all sorts of motivations to my posts.

    The $7.7 trillion I was referring to was not debt. That is money the Fed has given to banks. It is not part of the US Federal debt, but it is part of the money supply.

    Decided against it until you do more lurnin' about the WTO and international trade agreements.
    Clearly you don't even care about the subject. You just want to "win" some sort of competition that's going on in your head. If you did care, you'd actually discuss the issue instead of doing everything you can to end discussion. That's basically what you're doing. You're saying it's not possible to increase tariffs, so I'm an idiot for even trying to discuss it. I don't believe anything is impossible, unless it violates the laws of physics. Raising tariffs does not violate the laws of physics, therefore it is possible (though it might be very difficult).

    Now, let's move on to discussing whether or not it would actually have the desired effect.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #79
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    LOL, deliberate attempts to mislead? Over ~$200 billion when we're talking about several trillion? Seriously? You're going out of your way to assign all sorts of motivations to my posts.

    The $7.7 trillion I was referring to was not debt. That is money the Fed has given to banks. It is not part of the US Federal debt, but it is part of the money supply.

    Clearly you don't even care about the subject. You just want to "win" some sort of competition that's going on in your head. If you did care, you'd actually discuss the issue instead of doing everything you can to end discussion. That's basically what you're doing. You're saying it's not possible to increase tariffs, so I'm an idiot for even trying to discuss it. I don't believe anything is impossible, unless it violates the laws of physics.
    Actually, since your glaring ignorance has been exposed, I'm disinterested in continuing this...discussion. Carry on...

  10. #80
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Actually, since your glaring ignorance has been exposed, I'm disinterested in continuing this...discussion. Carry on...
    Haha, you're nothing but a troll. Congratulations, you got me.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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