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  1. #51
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Patriotism is what makes my job worth it all.
    maybe it's type related, though of all the types, ENFP and 8 would be at the top of the patriotism list, (perhaps you're a Social instinct dom?) or perhaps it's one of those issues where Fi users tend to have a strong stance one way or the other (like collectivism vs individualism)
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  2. #52
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    I'm throwing down the b/s flag hard. Considering how many people have cell phones, Internet, large screen TVs, eat junk and fast food, the list goes on and on, people can afford to buy domestic. In not doing so, they're killing themselves. If people were less selfish and lazy, they would be helping themselves in the long-term. All it would take is five to ten years of domestic support which would grow their country's economy through job creation, more equitable salaries and more tax income for the government to put down towards the debt.
    People try to get as much stuff as they can for the least amount of money. Call it being selfish and lazy if you want, but that doesn't change reality. I don't think most people value buying "American" because they're not thinking that far ahead. They're concerned with paying their bills that month and getting that flashy new iPhone that has been marketed to them (by people who are really good at manipulating human behavior). Unless you've got some plan for how we can brainwash 300,000,000 people into buying "American", I just don't see how your approach could work.

    As far as tariffs, don't know the legal ramifications of breaking free trade agreements enough to comment. But the political ramifications would be a shockwave, considering the amount invested by other countries in discount/debt instruments.
    I don't know the legal ramifications, either, but I doubt they're insurmountable. We could keep our low tariff rates with Europe, Australia, Japan, etc. because their workforce has a similar standard of living to us. It's nations with lower standards of living where tariffs would need to be increased.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #53
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    patriotism is outdated. nobody chose to be born in a certain country, so why be loyal to it. at the end of the day, I only care about myself, the rest of the world can go satisfy a horse
    Maybe the Republican brand of patriotism is outdated, but we have a pretty good reason to be loyal to our country. We're human and, whether you want to admit it or not, we're all products of our culture. If don't have any feeling of attachment to this culture, at all, I'd say there's probably something wrong with you, psychologically. I'm not saying you have to go around chanting "U-S-A! U-S-A!" or wear a US flag on your lapel. I certainly don't. But I really do want this country to prosper. I care about it.

    I'm sorry you only care about yourself, you must be pretty lonely. But that does help explain why you hold some of the political views that you do.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    since when has paying 35% of your income been paying your fair share? that's ridiculous.
    What data do you have to back up your unsubstantiated assertion that 35% is ridiculous?
    we just need to make it so that they don't have to pay millions upon millions in legislative tape fees to open up a factory here
    Eliminate regulation and you will end up with another Enron or another credit crisis caused by reckless gambling of by corporate executives for personal gain.

  5. #55
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    People try to get as much stuff as they can for the least amount of money. Call it being selfish and lazy if you want, but that doesn't change reality. I don't think most people value buying "American" because they're not thinking that far ahead. They're concerned with paying their bills that month and getting that flashy new iPhone that has been marketed to them (by people who are really good at manipulating human behavior). Unless you've got some plan for how we can brainwash 300,000,000 people into buying "American", I just don't see how your approach could work.
    It always floors me how people find a million excuses not to exert the power they have, instead preferring to be victims so they can point the finger at the [insert bogieman of preference].

    I don't know the legal ramifications, either, but I doubt they're insurmountable. We could keep our low tariff rates with Europe, Australia, Japan, etc. because their workforce has a similar standard of living to us. It's nations with lower standards of living where tariffs would need to be increased.
    Without the details, how can anyone understand the best course of action to take? There's generalised plans and flying blind with no parachute. Distinction.

  6. #56
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    maybe it's type related, though of all the types, ENFP and 8 would be at the top of the patriotism list, (perhaps you're a Social instinct dom?) or perhaps it's one of those issues where Fi users tend to have a strong stance one way or the other (like collectivism vs individualism)
    I mean.. I think it's just a matter of taking pride in your home. Whether you like it or not, you're American.. You were born and raised here. And while you could just say, "Well I didnt choose that, so Pitooy!"... I think you'd be really sad if America truly did fall, and you had to go to an entirely different country with a whole other way of doing things without even having a choice in the matter.. Especially if you knew if you just did more, or took some initiative, you'd still have it.

    No one wants to see their home get destroyed. It isn't a matter of whether I like the group or not. It's still my home.. and theirs. And working together means I get to keep it. and I take pride in where I live, no matter where that is.. a small room in a condemned building in Iraq, or the house I've lived in since I was a kid in Texas.
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  7. #57
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I mean.. I think it's just a matter of taking pride in your home. Whether you like it or not, you're American.. You were born and raised here. And while you could just say, "Well I didnt choose that, so Pitooy!"... I think you'd be really sad if America truly did fall, and you had to go to an entirely different country with a whole other way of doing things without even having a choice in the matter.. Especially if you knew if you just did more, or took some initiative, you'd still have it.

    No one wants to see their home get destroyed. It isn't a matter of whether I like the group or not. It's still my home.. and theirs. And working together means I get to keep it. and I take pride in where I live, no matter where that is.. a small room in a condemned building in Iraq, or the house I've lived in since I was a kid in Texas.
    I don't really feel like I have a home or place I "belong". I don't feel like an outcast or anything, the concept of belonging just doesn't really exist in my mind. sure, I would think it was unfortunate if America suddenly blew up while I was on vacation in Argentina, but not much more so than I would if the same thing happened to Africa (not only would it mean millions upon millions of death, but the global climate would be disagreeable for decades with all of the toxic clouds of ash thrown up into the atmosphere and this would probably result in maybe a billion more deaths).
    there are sentimental things and people I will miss, but I feel the same about places that aren't my home such as Japan and Barcelona
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  8. #58
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I don't really feel like I have a home or place I "belong". I don't feel like an outcast or anything, the concept of belonging just doesn't really exist in my mind. sure, I would think it was unfortunate if America suddenly blew up while I was on vacation in Argentina, but not much more so than I would if the same thing happened to Africa (not only would it mean millions upon millions of death, but the global climate would be disagreeable for decades with all of the toxic clouds of ash thrown up into the atmosphere and this would probably result in maybe a billion more deaths).
    there are sentimental things and people I will miss, but I feel the same about places that aren't my home such as Japan and Barcelona
    Not to sound a bit cliche but.. this feels naive to me. I think most people would take the option of being the majority in a familiar territory than being a very small minority in an unfamiliar place. It's not just "Oh... Africa exploded. :c " Being a refugee somewhere is not ever a good situation.

    Curious question. What stops you from just leaving this country and going to one that's more agreeable? You're an adult, and capable and more than that of being able to make just about anything work.. if you truly aren't so caring about this place, why not just move to one you do care about?
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  9. #59
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Not to sound a bit cliche but.. this feels naive to me. I think most people would take the option of being the majority in a familiar territory than being a very small minority in an unfamiliar place. It's not just "Oh... Africa exploded. :c " Being a refugee somewhere is not ever a good situation.

    Curious question. What stops you from just leaving this country and going to one that's more agreeable? You're an adult, and capable and more than that of being able to make just about anything work.. if you truly aren't so caring about this place, why not just move to one you do care about?
    - finances. I'm living with my parents and trying to start up a business so that I can have cyber income, so that I can eventually work and access money from anywhere in the world. the US isn't the worst place in the world, but it's not my cup of tea.
    - your example is a little archaic, I would choose being the majority in a family group because it's safer, not because I am sustained by community spirit, it's wonderful if some people are, but I'm not one of them. were I as financially successful, I would want to be as autonomous as possible (still do even now) and would actually prefer going off to some uncharted, unfamiliar territory (provided of course I was able to arrange modern appliances like electricity, internet access, and various hygiene/comfort accessories)
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  10. #60
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Maybe the Republican brand of patriotism is outdated, but we have a pretty good reason to be loyal to our country. We're human and, whether you want to admit it or not, we're all products of our culture. If don't have any feeling of attachment to this culture, at all, I'd say there's probably something wrong with you, psychologically. I'm not saying you have to go around chanting "U-S-A! U-S-A!" or wear a US flag on your lapel. I certainly don't. But I really do want this country to prosper. I care about it.

    I'm sorry you only care about yourself, you must be pretty lonely. But that does help explain why you hold some of the political views that you do.
    I care about a small handful of people, but none more than myself. I prefer to think of it as peace and quiet, as loneliness is not on my list of frequently occurring emotions.
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
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