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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    taking more money from the rich only encourages them to move their assets to non domestic locations and do business where they are appreciated. keep the productive people happy and you will have a prosperous and productive country
    oh no, certainly not taking money from them.. it is after all their money but looking out for our own self, the government and individuals, it is after all business and we should make an effort to be sure we profit. there should be a toll fee like the tariffs to keep business in our country. they wish to share in our economy and profit, than they would have to ground their self in it as well and contribute to what is greatly the reason for their success. they may choose to leave but to sell to us, they would have to pay a fee to make money back.

    @Lateralus
    that is a good idea. (i thought you were an entp?)
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  2. #32
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    The barstool economics exercise was actually pretty interesting.. As far as I can see, attitudes and a lack of communication are all that stop the entire situation from working.

    Similarly.. My point is. Instead of the bartender disrupting all of that scenario and throwing a wrench in the machine. Why doesn't he use that $20 discount to give them a better bar.. more beer options.. hotter waitresses.

    I'm with Lat on letting companies go overseas.

    @Usehername I think this is the case too. I think, especially with the "my voice isnt heard" mentality of many younger Americans now-a-days, people aren't going to be happy with change no matter what kind it is.
    I was actually referring to the personal income tax, not the corporate tax. I don't want companies to go overseas, but if rich individuals believe this country sucks too much to stay here, I say good riddance. I'm just sick of people saying we basically need to get on our knees and start sucking if we want to be viable economically.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #33
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I was actually referring to the personal income tax, not the corporate tax. I don't want companies to go overseas, but if rich individuals believe this country sucks too much to stay here, I say good riddance. I'm just sick of people saying we basically need to get on our knees and start sucking if we want to be viable economically.
    I knew what you meant.. I think I just wrote that because I was ready elfboy's points momentarily before writing. Sorry about that.
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  4. #34
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    If you want a viable economy, better start building a better infrastructure by supporting small to medium businesses, particularly in manufacturing. Buy domestic but only domestic that put jobs back into the economy. Everyone is guilty of fucking up the economy through support of global conglomerates which includes buying from Walmart or other global conglomerate owned big box stores. When you bank, why are you using big banks? Instead, handle your finances through independents and credit unions.

  5. #35
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    It's not about finding more revenue. The problem is systemic: democratic governments tend to get into unsustainable cycles of debt. It's just the nature of the beast. The United States has had a remarkably long run without defaulting on its debts; most countries face the music about every 50 years.

    Politicians want to spend, because that's popular, but don't want to tax, because that's unpopular. How does one spend with taxing? Borrow. This strategy cannot work indefinitely; the debt will need to be paid back. However, democratic governments have very short time horizons. Key decision-makers don't expect to be in office in twenty years when the shit hits the fan: the burgeoning debt is someone else's problem. Politicians are like 5 year olds: all about the right now to the detriment of the future.

    Point is, if government gets more revenue, they'll just spend the difference and borrow more. Even if they temporarily paid off all sovereign debt, unless the institutions of government are reformed, they'll eventually just dig themselves back into the same hole. It's probably better to just let them default every few decades; maybe people will learn that governments aren't such trustworthy debtors after all.

    In any case, the "debt crisis" is mostly the Federal Reserve's fault. If aggregate nominal income had been held on its prerecession trajectory, all this crap would still be twenty-thirty years away.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    It's reported on several places, like this one:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...n_1011601.html

    That essentially, the US Treasury would absorb $72 Billion annually or something like that every year if they just stopped giving the upper 5% of America's wealth the tax breaks they currently have.

    I'm not an expert on anything when it comes to this sort of thing.. but I do know that I'm poor and I'd still be willing to give up at least 1 year of tax returns entirely if it meant that our country got out of debt, schools got the upgrades they desperately need, and healthcare could become available at least to the elderly and minors.

    would something like this really work? Is it just as simple as forgoing tax breaks?
    To be honest I dont believe that the rich deserve a break, I dont believe that they are any more deserving of a break than anyone else, that's at any time, whether there's a recession or not.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    If you want a viable economy, better start building a better infrastructure by supporting small to medium businesses, particularly in manufacturing. Buy domestic but only domestic that put jobs back into the economy. Everyone is guilty of fucking up the economy through support of global conglomerates which includes buying from Walmart or other global conglomerate owned big box stores. When you bank, why are you using big banks? Instead, handle your finances through independents and credit unions.
    Expecting people to buy domestic when its more expensive than imported goods is not realistic. Maybe the wealthy can do that (if they bother), but most people don't have that luxury. You have to shift the cost balance between domestic and imported goods. Tariffs can do that.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #38
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Expecting people to buy domestic when its more expensive than imported goods is not realistic. Maybe the wealthy can do that (if they bother), but most people don't have that luxury. You have to shift the cost balance between domestic and imported goods. Tariffs can do that.
    I'm throwing down the b/s flag hard. Considering how many people have cell phones, Internet, large screen TVs, eat junk and fast food, the list goes on and on, people can afford to buy domestic. In not doing so, they're killing themselves. If people were less selfish and lazy, they would be helping themselves in the long-term. All it would take is five to ten years of domestic support which would grow their country's economy through job creation, more equitable salaries and more tax income for the government to put down towards the debt.

    As far as tariffs, don't know the legal ramifications of breaking free trade agreements enough to comment. But the political ramifications would be a shockwave, considering the amount invested by other countries in discount/debt instruments.

  9. #39
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
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    Nice post, Reason. I was looking for an argument, but your points are accurate.
    "The only time I'm wrong is when I'm questioning myself."
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  10. #40
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    If you want a viable economy, better start building a better infrastructure by supporting small to medium businesses, particularly in manufacturing. Buy domestic but only domestic that put jobs back into the economy. Everyone is guilty of fucking up the economy through support of global conglomerates which includes buying from Walmart or other global conglomerate owned big box stores. When you bank, why are you using big banks? Instead, handle your finances through independents and credit unions.
    All good points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Expecting people to buy domestic when its more expensive than imported goods is not realistic. Maybe the wealthy can do that (if they bother), but most people don't have that luxury. You have to shift the cost balance between domestic and imported goods. Tariffs can do that.
    I totally agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    I'm throwing down the b/s flag hard. Considering how many people have cell phones, Internet, large screen TVs, eat junk and fast food, the list goes on and on, people can afford to buy domestic. In not doing so, they're killing themselves. If people were less selfish and lazy, they would be helping themselves in the long-term. All it would take is five to ten years of domestic support which would grow their country's economy through job creation, more equitable salaries and more tax income for the government to put down towards the debt.

    As far as tariffs, don't know the legal ramifications of breaking free trade agreements enough to comment. But the political ramifications would be a shockwave, considering the amount invested by other countries in discount/debt instruments.
    Both of your theories are equally respectable. Lateralus' theory is more realistic.

    Jenaphor's theory assumes that Americans see themselves collectively as a unit, yet most theorists will look at behaviour patterns and argue that the public sphere has died and that's just not the case anymore. There is no united states of america in a compatriot sense anymore. No matter their words of American patriotism, the behaviours of Wall St. billionaires largely show that they see Chinese billionaires as their compatriots more easily than Podunk USA 'Mericans.

    Both of these are theories, but I think Jenaphor's makes less realistic sense because the problem is based on how people envision their place in the world. This is not the case for every billionaire, but largely speaking, they are going to envision themselves as part of the community that deals with serious business/finance rather than their national ties. That's the community they're imagining more than themselves as Americans united with Podunk USA people. It's an identity thing. Being successful, defined easily and visibly in monetary terms, is a better identity than any national identity, if we're using behaviours as evidence of what matters to people. Some Americans are great at buying American. These people's identities are more rooted in their patriotism than external notions of success. But these people are not the norm.

    Jenaphor's theory assumes that people behave logically, but really they behave emotionally in response to their vision of their place in this world, aka their identity. I'd vote that measurable notions of success (aka making $) will overrule patriotism, because this is what the data has shown in the past few decades of history, especially with the internet. We are on an internet forum, and have formed an imaginary community, and I am more likely to have something in common with someone from this community than a compatriot from my own nation.

    If you want people to buy American, you need people to emotionally need to see themselves as part of the American community more clearly than they need to see themselves as successful at x. They need to reframe their identities. In a materialist driven globalized economy, well, good luck with that.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
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