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  1. #91
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    It started with my above post which suggests more than cutting the tax breaks for the rich.
    Okay, my answer would be to understand that the behavior of people is quite easily influenced. People use a big bank because very expensive, well-run campaigns tell them to use big banks. People waste money on designer products because they were told to waste money on designer products.

    Conversely, it sometimes comes down to the things people aren't told, the information they are deprived of. People love the cheap prices at Walmart, and they are largely starved of the knowledge of how Walmart gets those prices and/or the amount of damage that scheme does to our economy.

    At this point, the businessmen and financiers who have the worst impact on the economy essentially own all media, and they have pretty powerful influence over education. Even in the more elite circles, it's a tight lobbying network where these people are the ones you are mostly like to hear the word from.

    It's not a coincidence that people are doing stupid things to our economy, there are forces paying an awful lot of money to keep it that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    As far as cutting the tax breaks for the rich, in the present economic conditions, I agree with it. Once the economy has been stabilised through everyone pitching in to create a sustainable economy through more self-sufficiency hence less reliance on global conglomerates, then my vote would be for some form of flat tax.
    What exactly do you define as stable?

    This may not enter into your calculation at all, but as far as I'm concerned, with our distribution of wealth a flat tax is not practical. It will either throw too much of the bottom into destitution or extract too little revenue from the top, but the distribution of wealth is so hyperbolic that no one rate can avoid doing either.
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  2. #92
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    I am really embarrassingly ignorant when it comes to economics and politics. (I do the best I can to get the basics that I think I need to vote like a sane person.)

    I do know that every single person shouldn't have to make money their entire focus to live in this world. It's like a big game to see who can get to and stay at the top. I know that someone else is not responsible for my well being and visa versa, but I don't like this dog eat dog mentality either. I say, take some of that extra money and spread it around, I think it can only do more good than harm.

    (Please leave me out of any bitch slapping fights! )
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  3. #93
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Okay, my answer would be to understand that the behavior of people is quite easily influenced. People use a big bank because very expensive, well-run campaigns tell them to use big banks. People waste money on designer products because they were told to waste money on designer products.

    Conversely, it sometimes comes down to the things people aren't told, the information they are deprived of. People love the cheap prices at Walmart, and they are largely starved of the knowledge of how Walmart gets those prices and/or the amount of damage that scheme does to our economy.

    At this point, the businessmen and financiers who have the worst impact on the economy essentially own all media, and they have pretty powerful influence over education. Even in the more elite circles, it's a tight lobbying network where these people are the ones you are mostly like to hear the word from.

    It's not a coincidence that people are doing stupid things to our economy, there are forces paying an awful lot of money to keep it that way.
    You know, I really dislike it when things like this are pawned off as conspiracy theories.. I feel the same way. Americans didn't do victory gardens and buy bonds because they saw it helped themselves. Someone told them to do it, and ran a lot of campaigns and created the mentality.

    What exactly do you define as stable?

    This may not enter into your calculation at all, but as far as I'm concerned, with our distribution of wealth a flat tax is not practical. It will either throw too much of the bottom into destitution or extract too little revenue from the top, but the distribution of wealth is so hyperbolic that no one rate can avoid doing either.
    As far as I can tell.. Stable, to me, would be:
    - Not in debt.
    - Upgraded structures for education so the ability to draw higher standards would be possible
    - To not have situations where thousands of elderly and children don't have access to health care
    - To not have situations where children are starving
    - As impossible as this one sounds, to have a government where money is not involved. As long as government officials are being bought and lobbied for, nothing will get done no matter how awesome it would be for America.
    - The ability for even poor Americans to potentially retire if they've contributed to the workforce.
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  4. #94
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Hm.. This is an interesting point. I know this is going to sound a bit sarcastic when I write it, but.. Why would we care if other countries are unhappy about it? We've done things for years now that other countries were not at all happy about... and never gave them the time of day about it. Do you feel that this would affect so much at once that it would be doomed to fail and cause backlash of all sorts?
    Firstly, the U.S. aren't the power they were, prior to 9/11. Next, take a look at how the WTO works, based on a legal agreement between 153 countries that govern trade between them. You cannot disadvantage certain countries without ramifications within this organisation. And considering how much the U.S. is reliant on imports to subsidize its lack within both the commodities and manufacturing sectors, sanctioning and embargoes will kill the U.S. economy in no time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Okay, my answer would be to understand that the behavior of people is quite easily influenced. People use a big bank because very expensive, well-run campaigns tell them to use big banks. People waste money on designer products because they were told to waste money on designer products.

    Conversely, it sometimes comes down to the things people aren't told, the information they are deprived of. People love the cheap prices at Walmart, and they are largely starved of the knowledge of how Walmart gets those prices and/or the amount of damage that scheme does to our economy.

    At this point, the businessmen and financiers who have the worst impact on the economy essentially own all media, and they have pretty powerful influence over education. Even in the more elite circles, it's a tight lobbying network where these people are the ones you are mostly like to hear the word from.

    It's not a coincidence that people are doing stupid things to our economy, there are forces paying an awful lot of money to keep it that way.
    It doesn't matter if rampant consumerism is being encouraged. The American people have power, whether they want to believe it or not, since its the single largest net consumer in the world. Swing even a portion of the focus back towards domestic consumption and the economy can swing back. But most definitely, the Feds have to help small to medium businesses through tax breaks, so they have a chance to create more domestic jobs who are willing to pay reasonable salaries, rather than the current model of global conglomerates executive levels, taking it all.

    What exactly do you define as stable?
    Four quarters of positive economic indicators which includes the unemployment rate below 5%.

    This may not enter into your calculation at all, but as far as I'm concerned, with our distribution of wealth a flat tax is not practical. It will either throw too much of the bottom into destitution or extract too little revenue from the top, but the distribution of wealth is so hyperbolic that no one rate can avoid doing either.
    No doubt Gini must go down. Possibly around 30 - 35 appears to be a reasonable ratio as compared to the current ~ 45.

  5. #95
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    I know that most of you have probably already seen this gem, but it makes me giggle.
    06/13 10:51:03 five sounds: you!!!
    06/13 10:51:08 shortnsweet: no you!!
    06/13 10:51:12 shortnsweet: go do your things and my things too!
    06/13 10:51:23 five sounds: oh hell naw
    06/13 10:51:55 shortnsweet: !!!!
    06/13 10:51:57 shortnsweet: (cries)
    06/13 10:52:19 RiftsWRX: You two are like furbies stuck in a shoe box

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  6. #96

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    ^ Tax dodger.

  7. #97
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Firstly, the U.S. aren't the power they were, prior to 9/11. Next, take a look at how the WTO works, based on a legal agreement between 153 countries that govern trade between them. You cannot disadvantage certain countries without ramifications within this organisation. And considering how much the U.S. is reliant on imports to subsidize its lack within both the commodities and manufacturing sectors, sanctioning and embargoes will kill the U.S. economy in no time.
    I see.. So the backlash has the potential to be awful. I think we've gone too long depending on this either way to make it a change anytime soon. We need to find a way to fix things ourselves.. then worry about what we truly want after that. If we weren't in debt, and had the upgrades we needed, it really wouldn't matter if some things collapsed. We'd have the capacity and support to keep everything in America again.. Either way.. I like things being open. I think there's other ways of fixing it without closing ourselves off to the world.

    It doesn't matter if rampant consumerism is being encouraged. The American people have power, whether they want to believe it or not, since its the single largest net consumer in the world. Swing even a portion of the focus back towards domestic consumption and the economy can swing back. But most definitely, the Feds have to help small to medium businesses through tax breaks, so they have a chance to create more domestic jobs who are willing to pay reasonable salaries, rather than the current model of global conglomerates executive levels, taking it all.
    This, however, I do and don't agree with. Buying local, creating ourselves, and small business exposure has long been campaigned on a small scale.. it hasn't done anything. Lots of people support these things--but not enough. When you have businesses like Amazon.com saying, "Oh, it's small-business-saturday? Go into a store, scan an item, and bring that scan online and you'll get 5% off of it." it still shows off that big businesses can campaign on a scale much larger than any small business would be able to do. Our small business was even emailed asking if we had barcodes so that people could do this.. We need larger campaigns supported by much bigger, more influential people if this movement is going to be anything of a major success.. which I feel it can be.

    I DO agree with tax breaks for small businesses.


    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    I know that most of you have probably already seen this gem, but it makes me giggle.
    [IMG]
    See, I think this is one of the more savage things about our nation. I'm not saying that we need EVERYTHING to cater to the poor.. but I do feel that the poor need to taken care of.. Situations like ours, and other stories we've heard.. it needs to get better, and fast. Even if we couldn't pay off debts, taking the tax returns and some of the breaks would be able to afford so so much. I'd rather not have a bigger tax return, and know that children are going to get medicine and check-ups as a result.

    I think that being able to see a dentist should NOT be a luxury. It seems so simple in my head.. I'm not sure why it wouldn't work.

    $72 billion a year alone from cutting back on tax breaks.
    Campaigns to help support the cause of upgrading healthcare, education, getting out of debt, etc. with this..
    Even if statistics aren't super-exact... 2008, the average tax return of the 96,000,000 filed was over $2000. That's 192 billion in a single year in 2008. This past year's tax return average was over $3,000.

    http://money.cnn.com/2011/03/04/pf/t...fund/index.htm

    Even if you took the poverty line out of this, and withheld half of people's tax returns.. That's a fuck ton of money to fix a lot of things that have been needing fixing in America. It probably won't make much of a dent in the debt.. but schools that have been deteriorating, non-profit buildings and hospitals that need upgrading, starting dental programs for the poor.. Something could be done with that.
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  8. #98
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I see.. So the backlash has the potential to be awful. I think we've gone too long depending on this either way to make it a change anytime soon. We need to find a way to fix things ourselves.. then worry about what we truly want after that. If we weren't in debt, and had the upgrades we needed, it really wouldn't matter if some things collapsed. We'd have the capacity and support to keep everything in America again.. Either way.. I like things being open. I think there's other ways of fixing it without closing ourselves off to the world.
    Hence the aspect of pat my back, pat yours within the WTO. Developed nations must maintain equal trade practices between each other, whereby they may not disadvantage less developed nations like China.
    This, however, I do and don't agree with. Buying local, creating ourselves, and small business exposure has long been campaigned on a small scale.. it hasn't done anything. Lots of people support these things--but not enough. When you have businesses like Amazon.com saying, "Oh, it's small-business-saturday? Go into a store, scan an item, and bring that scan online and you'll get 5% off of it." it still shows off that big businesses can campaign on a scale much larger than any small business would be able to do. Our small business was even emailed asking if we had barcodes so that people could do this.. We need larger campaigns supported by much bigger, more influential people if this movement is going to be anything of a major success.. which I feel it can be.

    I DO agree with tax breaks for small businesses.
    So then, how do the Feds encourage small to medium business, beyond tax breaks? One way would be to head tax outsourced labour or to slap a surtax on outsourced labour. I'd also love to see the shareholders of companies bear the full cost of the principals and officers salaries and compensations by bringing that amount below the taxable income line. This would mean that income going to insiders would be double taxed.

  9. #99
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    I feel like I was a little rash when I first commented in this thread. I'm really a nice guy once you get to know me and, while I don't really think about 99% of people, I do have a handful of people that I care a lot about who I am warm and cuddly with. being an anarchist does not mean you you don't care about people, it means that you think of yourself first and believe that forcing people's decisions is wrong and unproductive
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  10. #100
    Junior Member GatoLoco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    And considering how much the U.S. is reliant on imports to subsidize its lack within both the commodities and manufacturing sectors, sanctioning and embargoes will kill the U.S. economy in no time.
    Yet central bank monetization from massive trade deficit is killing the US economy slowly over time. Lose-lose.

    The American people have power, whether they want to believe it or not, since its the single largest net consumer in the world.
    The problem here is what happens to those in China should a large shift or large drop in consumption occur. Such a measurable drop in exports to the US could be effective genocide to unheard of numbers of Chinese who already aren't exactly living in Rodeo Drive conditions.

    How many untold thousands of Chinese died from hunger/poverty from the real-estate bubble? A lot of factories shutdown and the shockwaves from that event still are being felt there.

    But most definitely, the Feds have to help small to medium businesses through tax breaks, so they have a chance to create more domestic jobs who are willing to pay reasonable salaries, rather than the current model of global conglomerates executive levels, taking it all.
    Remove all corporate taxes on businesses under $30 million market cap (product based, not service industry; domestic - of course), IMO. Corporate taxes are a funny concept anyways as corporations don't pay taxes: shareholders and consumers pay them as they are just handed down.

    I also believe we can't fix things until we have measured drops in consumption, along with a rise in interest rates. This should reduce consumer debt and instigate savings & investment. The problem here is current government spending habits could never float such a concept, so things will eventually be much, much worse... just later (i.e. kick the can down the road.. at least until the next election).
    Last edited by GatoLoco; 12-13-2011 at 04:05 AM. Reason: Clarification

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