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  1. #241
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    To give politicians an opportunity to pander to voters by claiming they're "tough on crime".
    Well, I think it's important to also consider that there's a huge business in fighting drug trade, and people from that business do lobby. Never is there even a suggestion of decriminalizing one drug without a wave of so-called reports from every major law enforcement organization saying this would be a terrible disaster.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #242
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by earthtrekker1775 View Post
    Think outside the box/do your own research. I don't have time to dig around PubMed for what you could just as easily google. My lack of time ≠ loss of argument.

    Here is a very short excerpt from http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/821572-overview

    "they may present to the ED, usually complaining of symptoms of dehydration and hyperthermia. While most improve with supportive treatment alone, the patient should be evaluated for signs of hyperthermia, dehydration, hyponatremia, seizures, hypertensive crises, cardiac dysrhythmias, and possible signs of serotonin syndrome.

    MDMA use has increased dramatically, becoming a global phenomenon. The misconception that MDMA is a safe drug continues to be a major problem. Many of the myths concern the fact that it was once legal as a psychotherapeutic adjunct and that it has few adverse effects. The medical community's awareness of MDMA has increased, and conclusive evidence indicates that significant morbidity and mortality are associated with its use. Physicians must be able to recognize these symptoms and to treat and educate patients accordingly."

    There are several pages of material there, and if you are so inclined, you are welcome to look up the actual peer-reviewed published research.
    Are we now debating the effects of acute toxicity related to overdose?

  3. #243
    A window to the soul
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    Quote Originally Posted by chana View Post
    I feel like I live in a completely different wotrld then some people in this thread. like do you really think that there are a ton of people out there dying to try hard drugs but think "oh no it's illegal I can't!" I know more people who have ruined their lives with legal drugs than illegal ones. and don't see how ecstasy being legal would increase crime? honestly I have a hard time taking the opinions of someone who's never tried drugs seriously on this. don't speak on things you don't know.
    In a poly-drug culture, ecstasy is a gateway drug to harder drugs. Here's an interesting study on that, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1851690/. With that in mind, if the cost of ecstasy (a gateway drug) decreases and consumption increases (in a poly-drug culture), then drug related crimes will also likely increase accordingly. (There are other factors to consider here, but that's the high level overview.)

    Quote Originally Posted by chana View Post
    don't speak on things you don't know.
    I'm very observant; I understand a lot more than you might realize.

  4. #244
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Well, I think it's important to also consider that there's a huge business in fighting drug trade, and people from that business do lobby. Never is there even a suggestion of decriminalizing one drug without a wave of so-called reports from every major law enforcement organization saying this would be a terrible disaster.
    Yep, I was just throwing one reason out there. It's just like Wall Street regulation. You even mention the word regulation and Wall Street starts screaming about how any new regulation will destroy jobs. The public needs to stop listening to people with power who have a vested interest in the status quo.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #245
    libtard SJW chickpea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    In a poly-drug culture, ecstasy is a gateway drug to harder drugs. Here's an interesting study on that, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1851690/. With that in mind, if the cost of ecstasy (a gateway drug) decreases and consumption increases (in a poly-drug culture), then drug related crimes will also likely increase accordingly. (There are other factors to consider here, but that's the high level overview.)


    I'm very observant; I understand a lot more than you might realize.
    ecstasy is a gateway drug because people who use it have no issue with drug use to begin with, and are more likely to do any drug in general. ecstasy is a party drug, coke and meth keep you awake so you can party more. marijuana and heroin are both more chill drugs so it makes sense that a type of person would be drawn to those two.

    also I really doubt ecstasy would be cheaper if it was legal. it'd be taxed and extra money would go into regulating it I'm sure. it's like weed here, I could very easily get my medical marijuana card and get I legally, but it's cheaper and easier to get it on the street so I do.

  6. #246
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    In a poly-drug culture, ecstasy is a gateway drug to harder drugs. Here's an interesting study on that, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1851690/. With that in mind, if the cost of ecstasy (a gateway drug) decreases and consumption increases (in a poly-drug culture), then drug related crimes will also likely increase accordingly. (There are other factors to consider here, but that's the high level overview.)
    Caffeine is the gateway drug to harder drugs

    Prove me wrong

  7. #247
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    In a poly-drug culture...
    Yes, ekstasi has reached its peak here and is now being replaced by designer drugs.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    1. Of course regulation requires more laws than legalization.
    With regard to drugs in America, legalization and regulation go hand in hand.

    2. How much do we spend on drug prohibition every year? How much do we spend regulating alcohol and tobacco every year? The former is on the order of $70 billion. I'd be surprised if the latter is even 1/10th that amount.
    What does the $70-billion include and where did you get that figure? The official “President’s Fiscal Year 2012 National Drug Control Budget” requests $26.2 billion. The $26.2 billion budget includes the following: prevention, treatment, domestic law enforcement, interdiction, and international efforts.

    Here’s the official report from the whitehouse.gov website,
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/defa...t_exec_sum.pdf

    3. Has the regulation of alcohol created a black market for more powerful "dirty" alcohol?
    I’ve never heard of “dirty alcohol”. How are you suggesting we formulate it? A “dirty drug” is an informal term used in pharmacology. The reason why “dirty ecstasy” would be desirable on the streets is because it would contain more than just MDMA, as is already often the case and the point of that is for powerful special effects. Dirty drugs are designed to bind to many different molecular targets or receptors in the body. Let’s say heroin (diamorphine) and ecstasy (MDMA) are legalized and regulated so that the two must never be combined into one pill due to harmful interactions. Currently, on the streets you can buy “dirty ecstasy” where MDMA is combined with diamorphine, thus making it more powerful.

    Who said anything about a utopia?
    I did. "Utopia" is what I’m calling your rosey-idealistic vision of America, post drug legalization, where there will be a reduction in crime and perhaps angels singing.

    My position isn't idealistic, it's pragmatic.
    More accurately, your position is purely Libertarian. I encourage you to move beyond just “getting your facts straight” to include a complete understanding of the opposing facts and reality.

    I question your grasp on reality after reading these quotes...
    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Of course regulation requires more laws than legalization.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Legalizing drugs will reduce our violence problem.
    That’s your opinion and please don’t give me Portugal, alcohol, and tobacco examples again, unless you’re also going to includes examples of countries that failed miserably after legalizing drugs where violence increased significantly. There are several, so don't be shy.

    You don't seem to understand simple economics. Let me introduce you to a term you have probably never heard before, inelastic demand . Drugs have an inelastic demand curve. Comparing drugs to a commodity like gold is just...nevermind.
    I understand basic economics, but I don't understand how your ideas there tie in with mine. The *inelastic* demand curve would apply to heavily addictive drugs. I repeat, I am talking about ecstasy, which we have already established in this thread is NOT a heavily addictive drug. Furthermore, what does gold have to do with ecstasy?? Oh wait, you were reaching for that box full of fries with the golden arches again, weren’t you?

    Most drug related violence is due to cartels and dealers. How many users do something like this?
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...errey-drug-war
    The slaughtering in Mexico by the drug dealers increased after drugs were legalized in 2009, which I believe is primarily due to Mexico becoming more aggressive in their war on drugs against the drug cartel. It makes sense that would happen as the government tries to regulate usage. It doesn’t matter how one tries to spin it, crime in Mexico increased after the 2009 decriminalization legislation. Crime did not decrease and that was my point, simply stated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Caffeine is the gateway drug to harder drugs

    Prove me wrong
    I'm living proof that one can partake from the brown sleeved paper cup and still say "no" to ecstasy.

  9. #249
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    What does the $70-billion include and where did you get that figure? The official “President’s Fiscal Year 2012 National Drug Control Budget” requests $26.2 billion. The $26.2 billion budget includes the following: prevention, treatment, domestic law enforcement, interdiction, and international efforts.

    Here’s the official report from the whitehouse.gov website,
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/defa...t_exec_sum.pdf
    Yep, $26 billion is the FEDERAL spending. That doesn't include state and local spending. I've heard estimates from $50-$70 billion a year spent between all levels of government. I'll admit that $70 billion is probably on the high side, but it's a difficult number to quantify, precisely. The states spend at least as much as the federal government, each year. So you should at least double that $26 billion.

    I’ve never heard of “dirty alcohol”. How are you suggesting we formulate it?
    You're suggesting that legalization promotes "dirty" versions of drugs. If that's an effect of legalization, there should be "dirty" alcohol". Where is it?

    A “dirty drug” is an informal term used in pharmacology. The reason why “dirty ecstasy” would be desirable on the streets is because it would contain more than just MDMA, as is already often the case and the point of that is for powerful special effects. Dirty drugs are designed to bind to many different molecular targets or receptors in the body. Let’s say heroin (diamorphine) and ecstasy (MDMA) are legalized and regulated so that the two must never be combined into one pill due to harmful interactions. Currently, on the streets you can buy “dirty ecstasy” where MDMA is combined with diamorphine, thus making it more powerful.
    And? This only happens because it's not regulated.

    I did. "Utopia" is what I’m calling your rosey-idealistic vision of America, post drug legalization, where there will be a reduction in crime and perhaps angels singing.
    I don't believe in angels. But you apparently love straw men.

    More accurately, your position is purely Libertarian. I encourage you to move beyond just “getting your facts straight” to include a complete understanding of the opposing facts and reality.
    What you mean is, ignore data and go with your gut.

    I question your grasp on reality after reading these quotes...

    That’s your opinion and please don’t give me Portugal, alcohol, and tobacco examples again, unless you’re also going to includes examples of countries that failed miserably after legalizing drugs where violence increased significantly. There are several, so don't be shy.
    Care to show me where it has failed? I'm going to take a shot in the dark here and say that if any nation has legalized drugs and it had a negative effect on the society, it was probably a third world nation, a nation with political instability, a nation that is nothing like the US. Portugal is the closest example we have to the US, it is therefore the most valid example.

    I understand basic economics, but I don't understand how your ideas there tie in with mine. The *inelastic* demand curve would apply to heavily addictive drugs. I repeat, I am talking about ecstasy, which we have already established in this thread is NOT a heavily addictive drug. Furthermore, what does gold have to do with ecstasy?? Oh wait, you were reaching for that box full of fries with the golden arches again, weren’t you?
    In your mind, apparently gold and ecstasy have a lot in common. Gold has an elastic demand curve. You believe ecstasy does, too. I disagree.

    The slaughtering in Mexico by the drug dealers increased after drugs were legalized in 2009, which I believe is primarily due to Mexico becoming more aggressive in their war on drugs against the drug cartel. It makes sense that would happen as the government tries to regulate usage. It doesn’t matter how one tries to spin it, crime in Mexico increased after the 2009 decriminalization legislation. Crime did not decrease and that was my point, simply stated.
    You're trying to say that violence increased BECAUSE of decriminalization. That's simply not true. Violence has increased because the government is being more forceful with the cartels. Those are two distinct actions by the Mexican government. Decriminalization is distinct from the increased pressure on cartels from police. Why is this true? Because you can have one without the other.

    You have made one breakthrough. You admit that being more aggressive in the war on drugs leads to an increase in violence. Eventually, you'll think this through, completely.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #250
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    I'm living proof that one can partake from the brown sleeved paper cup and still say "no" to ecstasy.
    I'm living proof of a lot of things, but anecdotes are rarely useful for mass-impact legislation

    Would you say that ecstasy is THE gateway drug? Or are there other gateway drugs?

    Because the number of ecstasy users is quite small (tiny, even) compared to caffeine, THC, nicotine, alcohol, and analgesic users.

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