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  1. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gish View Post
    To even think to compare heroin to alcohol in its acceptance is completely flawed, how many people do you know that think heroin is a good idea?
    Amen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gish View Post
    The people who are going to do heroin/mdma/crack/meth do it already.
    I'm concerned about those folks that are mentally challenged or weak-willed. I predict they'll make unreasonable assumptions like a little bit of ecstasy won't hurt them or it's legal so it's harmless. The reality is, when folks start feeling the effects of a drug like ecstasy, they become uninhibited and lose their ability to rationalize. Under those circumstances, I bet they consume more drugs. Despite what they think, I think the drugs will control them.

  2. #192
    Senior Member Gish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post


    I'm concerned about those folks that are mentally challenged or weak-willed. I predict they'll make unreasonable assumptions like a little bit of ecstasy won't hurt them or it's legal so it's harmless. The reality is, when folks start feeling the effects of a drug like ecstasy, they become uninhibited and lose their ability to rationalize. Under those circumstances, I bet they consume more drugs. Despite what they think, I think the drugs will control them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post

    Do you have a crystal ball?
    I don't think it's fair to say that someone on MDMA loses their ability to rationalize, scientifically.
    Whoops.

  3. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You didn't even read the link. His post was about heroin. His link was about alcohol, not ecstacy.

    Differently =/= Prohibition

    I have already given my reasoning as to why this is true. You haven't explained anything. All you say is "you're wrong", the use circular reasoning to justify your position.

    Doesn't matter. You've got that vibe. I grew up surrounded by that vibe and it disgusts me.

    Your position is full of arbitrary double standards. Using your reasoning, french fries should be illegal because they contribute to heart disease. If I wanted to take the time, I could list 1000 different substances humans consume that harm them in some way and are unnecessary.

    It's not "just for the fun of it". No one has ever said it's "just for the fun of it". That's a disingenuous argument on your part, and deliberately so because your argument is so weak, logically.

    This paragraph is based on the flawed assumption that making drugs illegal will increase drug use. I feel like I've said this 1000 times already, but the data does not support this assumption.

    Circular logic FTL. I'm getting tired of refuting this crap. It's so bad, even a 10 year old would be able to blow up the flawed logic in your shitty posts.

    LOL, no, you're not. You have your beliefs and all input must pass through the confirmation bias filter that your beliefs have created.


    You love to tell people what they should and shouldn't do. You're quite an authoritarian. But it's not surprising. You're obviously a Republican. You believe it's perfectly fine for the government to intervene in peoples' personal lives, to tell them what they can and cannot eat or drink, who they can marry, and so on. But DON'T TOUCH YOUR WALLET! THAT'S TYRANNY!


    /facepalm
    How many cigarette billboards do you see today? Jesus Christ.
    Ouch, I can't even begin to respond to your entire misinterpratation of me it's so skewed. One thing that stands out as laughable is your comment that I love to tell people what to do. I certainly do not love telling people what they should and shouldn't do, Mr. ENTJ. I love sharing what works for me and my theories, yes. because I do like to help people and look out for what's in the best interest of the group.

    As for me, I take care of myself, I eat right, I excercise, and I avoid taking unnecessary drugs. I *am* proud of that. I want people to try that route over recreational drugs. I have never and will never do illegal drugs. My theory is that it's a lot easier to get a quick 'high' on drugs, than it is to work at being truly healthy and that's why I call people that do drugs weak-minded and weak-willed. And so are their justifications for usage usually. It is what it is.

    Even though I am struggling to understand you, I can honestly say that I don't have any bad feelings towards you, a fellow TC member, nor would I take the same liberties as you and put words in your mouth, sir.

    FACT: Recreational Drugs - "taken for pleasure rather than for medical reasons or because of an addiction." I paraphrased that definition from the dictionary when I said these types of drugs are taken "for the fun of it." Meaning, for the 'high'; for the pleasure.
    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/recreational

    FACT: Ecstasy is an illegal recreational drug.

  4. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gish View Post
    I don't think it's fair to say that someone on MDMA loses their ability to rationalize, scientifically.
    Okay, I came to that conclusion because I read MDMA is part a hallucinogen. Is that not correct?

    http://headsup.scholastic.com/articl...facts-ecstasy/

  5. #195
    Senior Member Gish's Avatar
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    The effects of MDMA have some aspects of a hallucinogen, true, but it's quite unique, so much so that there are a branch of drugs that are defined just by their similarity to MDMA. Hallucinogens don't mean that you are unaware of what you are doing, either. It's pretty rare to have any kind of trip where you lose that much awareness.
    Whoops.

  6. #196
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    Disgust and Druggies

    Druggies are Un-American.

    Why is this?

    Druggies are Un-American because America makes the fundamental distinction between phoney and genuine. This is a distinction that permeates the whole American culture.

    And as we know, ecstasy is genuine, but the pill, ekstasi, is phoney.

    So druggies are violating a fundamental taboo of American culture.

    And when we violate a taboo, we feel disgust. And when we feel disgust, we know we are violating a taboo.

    And the very word 'druggie' is pejorative and evokes disgust.

  7. #197
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    so you think if we did as portugal has done then people would be less likely to die from drug use or that just more people would stay out of jail? i think decriminalization might be beneficial if it helped more people obtain treatment rather than just be thrown in jail but i do think the drug traffickers or dealers should be locked up and i don't think it should be any easier for people to get.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  8. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You didn't even read the link. His post was about heroin. His link was about alcohol, not ecstasy.
    No, but I didn't intend to respond to your comment about that. I misquoted and immediately corrected my post. Oops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You haven't explained anything. All you say is "you're wrong", the use circular reasoning to justify your position.
    False. Firstly, I never stated "you're wrong" so don't quote me as if I did. Secondly, I did explain why I am against legalizing ecstasy. Thirdly, my reasoning isn't circular, if you follow the relevant data instead of reaching out in left field for french fries. Funny, but irrelevant.

    Let's work our way through this:

    You said, "Your position is full of arbitrary double standards. Using your reasoning, french fries should be illegal because they contribute to heart disease."

    I say No, using my reasoning we would compare ecstasy to heroin, or other similar illegal recreational street drug that alters normal brain function. BTW, "recreational drug" is a legal term and I provided the definition for you in a previous post. The U.S. separately defines narcotic drugs and controlled substances, which may include non-drugs, and explicitly excludes tobacco, caffeine and alcoholic beverages. And implicitly excludes french fries. Yes, I just weeded out the 'real' arbitrary data. Why arbitrary? Besides the obvious, we don't add fuel to a fire that's already out of control. We don't half-ass remove laws and hope for the best. You want your sammich? You want your drugs? ...Cry me a river. I don't care about freedoms for someone that wants to take street ecstasy for recreational purposes (i.e., as one member indicated, "getting in touch with other planes of existence") and possibly irresponsibly taking out a family in an SUV while driving under the influence.

    I feel more freedom knowing I live in a society where street ecstasy is illegal and law enforcement gets the users off the streets that my tax dollars pay for. Yes, I'm happy to pay for their prison stay to get them out of my hair. Have a nice life. I don't use illegal drugs, thus I don't feel my freedoms are taken away. I'm sorry for those that do, but seriously seek professional help, a travel agent, a fun hobby, anything. There are safer, more productive, more fulfilling, more rewarding recreational activities out there with longer-term benefits than taking street drugs. Take care of you.

    Why french fries are irrelevant to this discussion:
    • French fries have nutritional value. Ecstasy does not.
    • French fries are approximately 99% potato and 1% other. A street ecstasy pill may contain a cocktail of psychedelics and stimulants: ephedrine, phenylpropanolamine, paramethoxyamphetamine (PMA), methylenedioxyamphetamine (MDA), dextromethorphan, amphetamine, methamphetamine, ketamine, LSD, and heroin.
    • You rarely hear about someone driving impaired under the influence of a french fry and killing motorists.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Doesn't matter. You've got that vibe. I grew up surrounded by that vibe and it disgusts me.
    I'm touched, but you're not helping your credibility with the passionate Fi sentiments. :x

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It's not "just for the fun of it". No one has ever said it's "just for the fun of it". That's a disingenuous argument on your part, and deliberately so because your argument is so weak, logically.
    Perhaps you are talking about Ecstasy being legalized for medicinal purposes? which I believe MDMA may already be in the process of being legalized, but it appears most other members here are talking about legalization of street drugs for recreational usage, which is a controversial issue that I most often hear debated. And again, street ecstasy is dirty (see the possible ingredients I listed above). I'm guessing street ecstasy would be quite different from MDMA that one would get lagally from a pharmacy. I have no problem with doctors prescribing drugs for legitimate ailments and educating people on drug interaction and dosage. I do have a problem with a free-for-all lawless society where people do whatever the heck they want without regard for their own safety or the safety of others.

    Edit: Let's look at Mexico for a moment. What has happened south of the border since a 'model' law has been enacted legalizing drugs? There has developed an out and out war among drug dealers that have killed thousands over a four year period during which drugs have been for all intents and purposes legalized. Mexico is practically run by drug lords now.

    Based on what I learned in Psychology 101, I'll theorize that people are more likely to avoid taking illegal drugs, if there are negative consequences for their behavior: jail time, fines, a felony...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    How many cigarette billboards do you see today? Jesus Christ.
    lolz, Alcohol is on a billboard. Cigs are not. So what. Let's flip a coin for ecstasy then.

  9. #199
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    Ouch, I can't even begin to respond to your entire misinterpratation of me it's so skewed. One thing that stands out as laughable is your comment that I love to tell people what to do. I certainly do not love telling people what they should and shouldn't do, Mr. ENTJ. I love sharing what works for me and my theories, yes. because I do like to help people and look out for what's in the best interest of the group.

    As for me, I take care of myself, I eat right, I excercise, and I avoid taking unnecessary drugs. I *am* proud of that. I want people to try that route over recreational drugs. I have never and will never do illegal drugs. My theory is that it's a lot easier to get a quick 'high' on drugs, than it is to work at being truly healthy and that's why I call people that do drugs weak-minded and weak-willed. And so are their justifications for usage usually. It is what it is.

    Even though I am struggling to understand you, I can honestly say that I don't have any bad feelings towards you, a fellow TC member, nor would I take the same liberties as you and put words in your mouth, sir.

    FACT: Recreational Drugs - "taken for pleasure rather than for medical reasons or because of an addiction." I paraphrased that definition from the dictionary when I said these types of drugs are taken "for the fun of it." Meaning, for the 'high'; for the pleasure.
    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/recreational

    FACT: Ecstasy is an illegal recreational drug.
    By advocating a law that restricts the freedoms of others, you are, by definition, telling other people how to live their lives. There's no way around that one.

    You used the word "theory" incorrectly. The correct term would be "hypothesis" or "speculation".

    I look down on drug users, too, probably even more than you (I'm 100% certain I use even fewer drugs than you...I don't drink soda or use any sort of pain medication like Advil). But I don't believe the legality of an act should be subject to my personal preferences. That's one big difference between you and me.

    I don't want ecstasy legalized "just for the fun of it". My position is utilitarian. The harm caused by prohibition is greater than the harm created by legalization. So you can stop implying that I want ecstasy legalized so I can use it myself. But we both know you won't. You'll continue saying I want ecstasy legalized because it's "fun".
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #200
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    I'm concerned about those folks that are mentally challenged or weak-willed. I predict they'll make unreasonable assumptions like a little bit of ecstasy won't hurt them or it's legal so it's harmless. The reality is, when folks start feeling the effects of a drug like ecstasy, they become uninhibited and lose their ability to rationalize. Under those circumstances, I bet they consume more drugs. Despite what they think, I think the drugs will control them.
    If you take this paragraph and replace every word "ecstasy" with the word "alcohol", this statement remains equally valid and true.

    Regardless of an item's legality, it may be necessary to practice responsible use in order to avoid harm to self or others.

    Prohibition vastly decreases the opportunity for safe, responsible use of the item.

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