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  1. #11
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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  2. #12
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    I'm no expert on global economics, but this sounds like a good idea to me. If we could decide to eliminate currency and go back to the barter system at the same time, that'd be ideal. (Of course I know neither is feasible IRL.)
    Masquerading as a normal person day after day is exhausting.

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  3. #13
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarelle View Post
    I'm no expert on global economics, but this sounds like a good idea to me. If we could decide to eliminate currency and go back to the barter system at the same time, that'd be ideal. (Of course I know neither is feasible IRL.)
    Yeah, barter is awesome. As an engineer, I'm sure I could easily trade my talents for food.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #14
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Yeah, barter is awesome. As an engineer, I'm sure I could easily trade my talents for food.
    Exactly!
    Masquerading as a normal person day after day is exhausting.

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  5. #15
    F CK all I need is U ilikeitlikethat's Avatar
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    I owe Wonga.com, a payday loan company...

    I have a stand/battle planned tomorrow. (Well, 9am - 9pm today)

    I had this thing from Credit something something, some company, and they're comming tomorrow (today).

    I phoned them today (yesterday), told them 'to not waste their time, I didn't do business at the door, please don't come and they do I'd consider it aggravated harassment if they do.'
    They're not a baliff, I don't owe them anything, they bought off the debt from Wonga and I was paying it off. - They purchased my debt because, it has been long and, lately I couldn't pay for a while, and, that means I don't owe 'Credit something something or the other'
    I don't do business at the door so they'd best go away if they came or I'd call the police looking for number plates (car license plates).

    I don't know, I'm a little nervous, but the guy listened to me, I just hope I don't have to put that speech into practise, and if Wonga cut their losses and sold what I owed, then WOO-HOO! and if that guy comming bought it, that's not my problem, I owed Wonga, not these people. - These people think they have a right to demand money from you.

    • If I owed £100 to Wonga.com
    • Then this guy/company must have bought my loan for IDK, £75 (let's persume that amount).
    • Since I never went to court to contest a warrant, he doesn't have a right to take anything
    • He may ask - That is it.
    • I still intend to pay back Wonga (someday), but if they've gone and sold my loan, maybe they've gone and written it off? I don't log in to Wonga much since not having money for them and I don't check my emails often anyway, but if they've written off my loan...
    = Debt forgotten.

    Okay, so my credit's f**ked, I guess, IDK, tbh, I don't want to know.

    I'm going to tell him to go away and leave me alone and I asked him today via telephone not to come so if he comes and doesn't go alas, it may be on.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Here's a hypothetical scenario which I doubt has any plausibility, but let us considerate.

    What would happen if every country in the world made a gentleman's agreement to forget all the debt every country has? Start it over, hit the reset button, make a clean slate. All that money everyone owes everybody else now, you don't owe it anymore.

    What impact would this have? How would the global economy respond? Who would be winners and who would be losers and just how big would those wins and losses be?
    I'd be in favour of it, something like this happening every seven years and also other measures to repress the financial scams which depend on debt for their existence.

  7. #17
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'd be in favour of it, something like this happening every seven years and also other measures to repress the financial scams which depend on debt for their existence.
    I was going to say something like this, because obviously it would eventually end up in the same position again. Maybe this will become the answer in later years? Afterall it cant be left to just build up and up from day X.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

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    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
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  8. #18
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    I was going to say something like this, because obviously it would eventually end up in the same position again. Maybe this will become the answer in later years? Afterall it cant be left to just build up and up from day X.
    This was the way in which money lending was managed according to the big three Abrahamic religions back in the day, in repression of usury and the ability to be idle and live by possessing and manipulating wealth alone, as opposed to "honest labour" was considered an moral issue worthy of sanction.

    There are quotes from the various scriptures about not being miserly in the seventh year or jubilee year too, although I'm sure that it would probably have been practice for people in the seventh year to be even more cautious of people taking loans which they knew would be "forgiven" the following year, although to be honest I'm not sure this would be a bad thing because I'm sure it would influence anyone seeking a loan as much as it would anyone providing one. Infuence them for the good I mean.

    Hilaire Belloc, GK Chesterton and other distributivists advocated the restoration of traditions like this and other financial controls, which would really be forms which would kill the financial sector as we know it, restoring a wider distribution of property, to make self reliance a possibility rather than mantra and some ideas similar to guild socialism usually accompany it all too. The hostility with the distributivists was always more towards financial capital than capital per se and definitely was not towards proprietorship generally like other left wing movements.

    I dont know about the idea or ideas in their entirety, I have more of a personal and speculative interest and sympathy with democratic socialism (as I understand it, ie big D, small S) but the main contradictions in capitalism as I see it are financial at the moment and generated by the financial sectors.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Here's a hypothetical scenario which I doubt has any plausibility, but let us considerate.

    What would happen if every country in the world made a gentleman's agreement to forget all the debt every country has? Start it over, hit the reset button, make a clean slate. All that money everyone owes everybody else now, you don't owe it anymore.

    What impact would this have? How would the global economy respond? Who would be winners and who would be losers and just how big would those wins and losses be?
    Savers lose, debtors win, contracts are violated, and nobody will lend again except at ridiculously high interest rates.

    Your options then would be, either the economy goes into depression as no banks will lend, or the government has to massively tax the rich in order to fund cheap loans and/or governemnt spending.

    Cue inefficiency and hyper-inflation. Everyone gets poorer. Less goods, more expensive. Long term decline of living standards.

    See here for a real life example:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argenti...)#Debt_default

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Here's a hypothetical scenario which I doubt has any plausibility, but let us considerate.

    What would happen if every country in the world made a gentleman's agreement to forget all the debt every country has? Start it over, hit the reset button, make a clean slate. All that money everyone owes everybody else now, you don't owe it anymore.

    What impact would this have? How would the global economy respond? Who would be winners and who would be losers and just how big would those wins and losses be?
    As far as debt owed between countries:

    Here is a list of countries by Net International Investment Position (NIIP): http://www.financialsense.com/contri...debtor-nations

    Countries with a positive NIIP are considered to be creditor nations, while those with a negative NIIP are debtor nations. To put it another way:

    Japan has the highest (most positive) NIIP, which means it has loaned out the most money to other countries and therefore would suffer the most if all the loans were suddenly forgiven.

    By comparison, the US has the lowest (most negative) NIIP, which means it has borrowed the most money from other countries and therefore would benefit the most if all loans were suddenly forgiven.

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