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  1. #21
    Aquaria mrcockburn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont know if the killing of people who are wicked and whose reputation proceeds them is a result of subjective opinions rather than the natural consequences of their actions.

    It would be possible to deem the outcome of any trial to be subjective opinions and the trial itself theatre sanctioning those opinions, confering validity to them, I know that Saddam and his supporters would consider it so.

    Whether by trial or not the deaths of dictators in that part of the world have been pretty swift, I almost expect the deaths of those responsible for the greatest atrocities in the Balkans and Bosnia to be of old age.
    Natural consequences, yes. But still, it's only fair to *prove* he did the deed that merits such consequence.

    I see what you mean regarding the justice system merely being an emporium of merged and triumphing-by-majority opinions, but those opinions should only be formed on the basis of concrete evidence.

    In lieu of judgment based on beliefs "beyond all reasonable" doubt, I believe the standard should be raised to "beyond all possible doubt" unless an agreed-upon definition of "reasonable" can be established.

    That's a whole 'nother can of worms, though. My point is, my best friend should not be treated according to different standards from Hitler, ceteris paribus.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcockburn View Post
    Natural consequences, yes. But still, it's only fair to *prove* he did the deed that merits such consequence.

    I see what you mean regarding the justice system merely being an emporium of merged and triumphing-by-majority opinions, but those opinions should only be formed on the basis of concrete evidence.

    In lieu of judgment based on beliefs "beyond all reasonable" doubt, I believe the standard should be raised to "beyond all possible doubt" unless an agreed-upon definition of "reasonable" can be established.

    That's a whole 'nother can of worms, though. My point is, my best friend should not be treated according to different standards from Hitler, ceteris paribus.
    I believe in equality before the law and due process of law, summary justice and lynch mobs make mistake and it often about their unwillingness to self-regulate their emotional responses to horror than about exacting justice or following through on natural consequences.

    Although I've always had a strong sympathy for people who act as avengers or seek revenge, it is often the source of crucial satisfaction which is wholly abscent from the contemporary justice system, which is a sort of rehab/clinical approach, often protecting offenders from natural consequences and impedding the development of any kind of consequential thinking processes.

    Its a little removed from the topic of punishing dictators though, the thing about dictators, same as the fall of kings in their day, is that once the institution is destroyed what matters the individual? Usually the greater the violence the weaker the change.

  3. #23
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by earthtrekker1775 View Post
    No dehumanizing here. The 4 points you mentioned are not worth dehumanizing anyone over. Now if they are an armed threat, things change a bit and I would not dehumanize them or violate any of their basic human rights because the minute they pick up a weapon with intent to maim, kill, or terrorize innocent people- they no longer have basic human rights, they surrendered those rights. Still 100% human, absolutely.
    same here. I have a hard time dehumanizing someone -- I actually have to make an effort, if I were to succeed. Even people who end up believing and saying and doing things I personally think are despicable, I can't mentally strip them of their humanity. I end up viewing them as tragedies (because they're people), not as animals.

    In a sense, it makes it even harder to deal with; it's easy to write off someone's actions if you can dehumanize them and thus expect nothing from them; the fact we're all human makes human evil even worse when perceived.

    @Patches: That's pretty fascinating, the Dunbar number; I'll have to look that up.
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  4. #24
    Junior Member Dingo's Avatar
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    No dehumanizing in such a sense.

    I would probably feel alright with defending myself, but I do not see myself viewing even an attacker as less than human.

    There are people I feel are frightening in their views or actions, but I prefer avoiding them over deciding that they aren't human.
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  5. #25
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    If they push the wrong buttons; it has to be something deeply personal for me to go to that level, though. I treat everyone who hasn't personally wronged me as a human being.

  6. #26
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    So I am wondering. How quick are you to dehumanize people who:

    1) disagree with you?
    2) rub you the wrong way?
    3) inconvenience you?
    4) make it hard for you to get your job done?

    By dehumanize, I mean, to, in your own mind, strip them of their human status. Thinking of them as "animals", "monsters", "menace", or really any label that would justify, in your mind, violating one of their human rights.

    Human rights include:
    The right to life, liberty, personal security, status of personhood, equal protection under the law,
    freedom from slavery, torture, cruel or degrading punishment, arbitrary arrest, ...

    http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

    Maybe introspection is too hard. How quickly have you seen it happen?
    I met a professor in college who fits your description.
    She disagreed with me (Two years later, she was proved wrong).
    She did rub me in the wrong way.
    She did inconvenience me.
    She made it impossible for me to get my job done.

    I asked her: Are you a human being? She did not reply.
    Did I dehumanize her?
    I did not say: You are not a human being.
    I only asked.

    Another aspect.
    It is not all right for the poor to dehumanize the rich. I agree.
    Lenin did. He was proved wrong.

    It is all right for the rich to dehumanize the poor.
    Is it that what you are saying?

    Property has protection under the law.
    Human life has not.

    Did Graham Greene dehumanize the waspies?
    He only asked what they are doing in Mexico, Haiti and Cuba.
    Do not look out of the rear window.
    Truth is there.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    So I am wondering. How quick are you to dehumanize people who:

    1) disagree with you?
    2) rub you the wrong way?
    3) inconvenience you?
    4) make it hard for you to get your job done?

    By dehumanize, I mean, to, in your own mind, strip them of their human status. Thinking of them as "animals", "monsters", "menace", or really any label that would justify, in your mind, violating one of their human rights.
    This would also include labeling people as angels or gods.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    If anything, I think people should expose themselves and be open to conflict more. Ironically, it might help in not dehumanizing. You'll learn to not sweat the small shit. I think if you avoid acting on those impulses, it'll just build up into general resentment and a "fuck the world" attitude. You never understand anyone that way.

    There are soldiers whose job is to kill their opponents, and yet.. some are still human enough to respect those opponents. Not all mind you, but sometimes, it's the most battle hardened ones that are the most honorable. It's the dipshits who aren't used to it who resort to spitting on people's graves, raping their families, and cutting off ears and making necklaces out of them.

    Not sure if my point is coming across well, but whatever.
    +1

  9. #29
    Intergalactic Badass mujigay's Avatar
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    To be honest, I find it incredibly difficult to dehumanize people. In fact, sometimes I come off as a dick in polite company because I don't insist on making out Hussein or Hitler to be monstrous freaks. It's not empathy so much as common sense, the fact that these people did terrible things doesn't mean that they aren't people.
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  10. #30
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    This would also include labeling people as angels or gods.
    So true.

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