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  1. #51

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    I'm sorry evolutionary what? Evolutionary creationists? Is that even a thing, tell me that's not a thing and its just made up. How can that be a thing? I dont think that's a thing at all.

  2. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I have this theory that most people are naturally moderately socially conservative (in that they are not a fan of rapid change of social standards), and moderately fiscally conservative (in that they want a fiscally responsible government), but that zealotry (in both fiscal and social spheres) keeps them from identifying themselves as conservatives. At least, I would characterize myself that way.

    I have respect for those who stand up for principles. But to me it seems like the political parties are not standing up for anything. They are just out to win, and they are willing to twist what they say to win. At some point, that strategy has to stop working.

    I want a government where being principled and pragmatic are not seen as contradictions, where faith and reason go hand in hand, and where common sense is not pitted against hard-won knowledge.
    I would actually agree with that, especially since most systems or equilibrium theories suggest that people prefer stability, even bad stability, to any sort of change, which is considered threatening and prefer an actuality to a possibility.

    Its why you get alcoholics who know, I mean really know, that giving up alcohol altogether would be personal progress dont bother or members of dysfunctional family units will fiercely defend their familial ties and become the epitomy of familial loyalty even though they know objectively its not warranted or that there are better alternatives.

    Some radicals have conceived of this sort of moderating conservatism as the necessary willingness of prisoners to defend the cage they are in from external threats while they slowly expand the floor to the point where they can break the bars. Its an interesting and politically pragmatic counter to the attacks on gradual change which suggest it all amounts to longer chains and nicer shackles.

    Zealotry, which has got to be the epitomy of irony when associated with conservatism, is definitely alienating to "natural conservatives" which are or ought to be anything but, this less ideological strain is inclinded to crave or support stability versus the frequently destabilising or abstractly reasoned varieties which are popular with ideologues.

    However while I would support the idea that most people are socially, I would say culturally, conservative and fiscally conservative, I would also suggest that most people are also in favour of mixed economies, public services and properly managed public utilities.

    The fact that those things are not actually politically neutral but the stuff of free market conservative rhetoric's creeping socialism, the word socialism being used in a strictly prejorative sense to mean all kinds of wickedness, is a testament to just how successful free market conservative militants have been in framing the debate and public discourse.

    Its interesting to see what happens when conservatives such as Merkel's German Christian Democrats are compelled into pitched battles with the conservatives such as Cameron or Ron Paul's tea partiers. They are both conservatives. One is apparently pro-taxation and wishes to shrink the dependency of nations upon financial transactions for GDP while the other seems to believe that exactly the converse is true. Still I would consider them to both be conservative.

  3. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm sorry evolutionary what? Evolutionary creationists? Is that even a thing, tell me that's not a thing and its just made up. How can that be a thing? I dont think that's a thing at all.
    That is the belief that the modern view of evolution is true as far a science can elucidate it, but, it is the result of God's work. Sometimes called Theistic Evolution.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    However while I would support the idea that most people are socially, I would say culturally, conservative and fiscally conservative, I would also suggest that most people are also in favour of mixed economies, public services and properly managed public utilities.
    I would agree with that.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
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  4. #54
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The fact that those things are not actually politically neutral but the stuff of free market conservative rhetoric's creeping socialism, the word socialism being used in a strictly prejorative sense to mean all kinds of wickedness, is a testament to just how successful free market conservative militants have been in framing the debate and public discourse.
    Indeed.
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  5. #55
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    That is so pathetic.
    Agreed.

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  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    That is the belief that the modern view of evolution is true as far a science can elucidate it, but, it is the result of God's work. Sometimes called Theistic Evolution.

    I would agree with that.
    Perhaps I would be a believer in theistic evolution, I know my church professes something like that, RCC church, and I know that Hans Kung, a theologian who I broadly concur with on many points would suggest that evolution is not a theory but an indisputable fact but does not see it invalidating God or vindicating atheism, although I'm not sure if he is a supporter of intelligent design theories.

    For me any idea of divinity defies reason and conceptualisation, its why unfruitful and unwise anthropomorphism has ruled the roost for much of the history of theology, the closest science gets to it is on the outer reaches of quantum physics, which if you think religious stories are strange you really ought to check out. Things like ID and most "guided evolution" theories are of the former not the later discourse. So I dont find them credible.

  7. #57
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Agreed.

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  8. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    What did Jesus teach that "Jesus freaks" have contempt for? Jesus didn't teach "tolerance." He did teach that all men are sinners, and that there's only one way out, and that's through Him. I didn't realize I was in contempt of that.
    First of all, while Jesus did not teach "tolerance", he consistently showed mercy and kindness to the dregs of society...the whores and the criminals and the sinners and the sick. He preferred to show compassion and then let people be judged at the proper time. Second, who said anything about you? Maybe you're a part of what I'm talking about, maybe you're not. I don't know you. It's easy to see (for anyone that cares to see) that I was not referring to all Christians. Especially since I am one.

    A list of policy positions endorsed by the majority of evangelical "Christian" conservatives that go directly against Jesus' teachings would include:

    - Opposition to a health care safety net
    - Endorsement of the Bush tax cuts, or any tax policy that eases the burden of the richest Americans
    - Support of unjust wars
    - Opposition in principle to social programs like food stamps and welfare
    - The incorporation of Christian teachings into government policy
    - The increasing power of corporations to mistreat, marginalize and bully their employees in order to support unsustainable profit growth

    And that's just the broad strokes. The disconnect between Christian teachings and conservative Christian public policy is comically pronounced. Don't even try to pretend that I was making a broadside attack against Christianity. My posting history shows that such a charge is ridiculous.
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  9. #59
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    First of all, while Jesus did not teach "tolerance", he consistently showed mercy and kindness to the dregs of society...the whores and the criminals and the sinners and the sick. He preferred to show compassion and then let people be judged at the proper time. Second, who said anything about you? Maybe you're a part of what I'm talking about, maybe you're not. I don't know you. It's easy to see (for anyone that cares to see) that I was not referring to all Christians. Especially since I am one.

    A list of policy positions endorsed by the majority of evangelical "Christian" conservatives that go directly against Jesus' teachings would include:

    - Opposition to a health care safety net
    - Endorsement of the Bush tax cuts, or any tax policy that eases the burden of the richest Americans
    - Support of unjust wars
    - Opposition in principle to social programs like food stamps and welfare
    - The incorporation of Christian teachings into government policy
    - The increasing power of corporations to mistreat, marginalize and bully their employees in order to support unsustainable profit growth

    And that's just the broad strokes. The disconnect between Christian teachings and conservative Christian public policy is comically pronounced. Don't even try to pretend that I was making a broadside attack against Christianity. My posting history shows that such a charge is ridiculous.
    I don't know your posting history. I also know that it's not right to be attacking your fellow believers over such superficial, political issues. You've done pretty good at demonizing.

    As far as my own beliefs, I'm not a conservative. But I am a right-winger, and don't apologize for it. It's not the state's responsibility to care for the poor, it's the church's responsibility. Trying to enforce a social policy via the state is in violation of people's free will. Jesus never forced anything on anybody, and certainly never invoked the state. It is absolutely right to help those in need and wrong to not do so. But it's also wrong to use force to make people "give," because that isn't really giving.

    I don't doubt you are what you say you are, but don't go attacking me or others either. It's kind of hypocritical given the nature of your attack.
    You lose.

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  10. #60
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm sorry evolutionary what? Evolutionary creationists? Is that even a thing, tell me that's not a thing and its just made up. How can that be a thing? I dont think that's a thing at all.
    It is. It's the reconciliation between God and evolution. In other words, the world has evolved, but via the direction of a creator.
    You lose.

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