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  1. #11
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    Everything should be questioned (within reason).
    Including that?


  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Gravity is a theory

    Scientists do lie

    Both of these statements are fact
    LOL. Yes. But, the implication here is that scientists are lying "left and right".

    As if science were part of a left-wing conspiracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    Everything should be questioned (within reason).
    Indeed. But there is a difference between questioning something and making a decision on it based on evidence, and disagreeing with something because it feels discomforting and then questioning it with the intent of relieving the discomfort.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  3. #13
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Including that?

    Sure.

    I also wanted to add that I'd be less inclined to question licensed professionals because that is the purpose of the licensing agencies to question their candidates. Checks and balances (esp from outside sources) is good.

    That said, I'm not sure if anyone would be completely transparent and accountable without being ordered by some higher ups to do so.

    But don't listen to me. I'm in accounting and I have an accounting mentality.

    None of this really addresses university research. It's a good question too. Who is keeping tabs on research institutions? Who is keeping tabs on research publications as well?

    I'm not saying they are lying because I don't know that but I am curious about how they are managed.

  4. #14
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    Sure.

    I also wanted to add that I'd be less inclined to question licensed professionals because that is the purpose of the licensing agencies to question their candidates. Checks and balances (esp from outside sources) is good.

    That said, I'm not sure if anyone would be completely transparent and accountable without being ordered by some higher ups to do so.

    But don't listen to me. I'm in accounting and I have an accounting mentality.

    None of this really addresses university research. It's a good question too. Who is keeping tabs on research institutions? Who is keeping tabs on research publications as well?

    I'm not saying they are lying because I don't know that but I am curious about how they are managed.
    A lot of the more credible ones tend to wound on scholarly magazines. Peer-review is just that, you get checked by your peers (pretty much in your field also,) the more of them that cite/use/agree with your source, the more credible it is. Often times, a peer-reviewed article can take years before people finally find it to be credible.

  5. #15
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    A lot of the more credible ones tend to wound on scholarly magazines. Peer-review is just that, you get checked by your peers (pretty much in your field also,) the more of them that cite/use/agree with your source, the more credible it is. Often times, a peer-reviewed article can take years before people finally find it to be credible.
    Wow. That sounds like it has the makings for a serious good old boys club.

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    Sure.

    I also wanted to add that I'd be less inclined to question licensed professionals because that is the purpose of the licensing agencies to question their candidates. Checks and balances (esp from outside sources) is good.

    That said, I'm not sure if anyone would be completely transparent and accountable without being ordered by some higher ups to do so.

    But don't listen to me. I'm in accounting and I have an accounting mentality.

    None of this really addresses university research. It's a good question too. Who is keeping tabs on research institutions? Who is keeping tabs on research publications as well?

    I'm not saying they are lying because I don't know that but I am curious about how they are managed.
    Even licensing boards are comprised mainly of people inside the profession.

    There are publications that come out that need to be retracted. There are scientists who manipulate data. There are plenty of times scientists have just been wrong.

    But because people are trying to constantly test or use the results of prior science, the results eventually converge to some standard. The standards are often as true as true can be.

    The really big theories, that are used constantly, are tested not only in the scientific community but are also used often by practicing, licensed Doctors and Engineers, and eventually (even if they don't know it), by everyone. Science pervades modern life, and the theories are not just checked once during peer-review, but multiple times, as the theories become more mainstream.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  7. #17
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Even licensing boards are comprised mainly of people inside the profession.

    There are publications that come out that need to be retracted. There are scientists who manipulate data. There are plenty of times scientists have just been wrong.

    But because people are trying to constantly test or use the results of prior science, the results eventually converge to some standard. The standards are often as true as true can be.

    The really big theories, that are used constantly, are tested not only in the scientific community but are also used often by practicing, licensed Doctors and Engineers, and eventually (even if they don't know it), by everyone. Science pervades modern life, and the theories are not just checked once during peer-review, but multiple times, as the theories become more mainstream.
    If it's ultimately true that theories are checked and rechecked anyway, then what is the problem with Republicans questioning them? Is it their tone? Are they lacking finesse? Are they interrupting this natural process you described?

    PS - I may not be back to this thread but I thank you for your enlightening posts.

  8. #18
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    Wow. That sounds like it has the makings for a serious good old boys club.
    Not sure if you are using it as a derogatory term, but a peer-review makes sense.

    I mean, you really don't want someone who isn't experienced to be piloting a plane/ship to be taking you somewhere now, would you?

    It is the same reasoning behind why you say that you have an accounting mentality, I am quite sure there are peer-review articles about accounting.

    They are focused highly on their subject.

  9. #19
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    Not sure if you are using it as a derogatory term, but a peer-review makes sense.

    I mean, you really don't want someone who isn't experienced to be piloting a plane/ship to be taking you somewhere now, would you? It is the same reasoning behind why you say that you have an accounting mentality, I am quite sure there are peer-review articles about accounting.
    It depends on who the peers that are reviewing it are. Someone from your same university or group is different than someone more removed from you yet within the same profession. In accounting we have auditors who are also accountants who review the work you've done if you are a public company. The auditors must be, by law, completely independent and removed from you and your company and the results are published. In other words, you can't have your friends or colleagues review your work. Is this how it is with scientific peer review?

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    If it's ultimately true that theories are checked and rechecked anyway, then what is the problem with Republicans questioning them? Is it their tone? Are they lacking finesse? Are they interrupting this natural process you described?
    There is nothing wrong with questioning. But implying a profession is a scam, is another thing entirely.

    It is the tone and the rhetoric. This strategist is not just questioning scientific results. She is implying that the profession is a scam. The reasons the particular Republican strategist used to support her view strikes me as silly at best, insane at worst. If her beliefs are mainstream, I fear for the future of scientific and technological leadership of this country going forward.

    The claim that scientists are lying "right and left" or whatever is one thing. But making it part of the campaign is another thing. This strategist, if mainstream, holds a lot of power in what sort of message the political message Republicans use. Making scientific funding and science education political is politicizing something that should not be political.

    Imagine if you were in a profession that relied a lot on government funding for its existence, and if one of the main parties trying to run the government had mainstream people believing that the profession is scamming the people (and providing no evidence for this). Would this upset you?

    The harm here, is not so much to science (though it would slow the pace of knowledge growth). The Chinese and Indians will do the science we decide not to do in the U.S. The harm done is to the country. The engine of economic growth is technology development, and science is at its core. The harm done, is to the scientists who decided to do research here, instead of in another country.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

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