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  1. #201
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    You don't mace a kid who's lying quietly on a sidewalk unless you're an asshole and an idiot. You talk to them, find out what they're upset about, see what you can do to help them. Getting a directive from a superior doesn't change anything...how many atrocities do we have to endure until we learn that obvious lesson?
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  2. #202
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/11/2...epper-sprayed/

    Filthy hippie. Clearly she deserved this, just like that old lady.

    EDIT: @swordpath
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  3. #203
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    I believe in the right to peaceful assembly. I do not believe in the right to override the orders of police officers, and continue to remain assembled, against orders. This is what I am referring to. The kids would not move, they refused to disassemble, so they got sprayed. They put themselves in the line of danger, willingly. They were not violent or hostile, but they were not agreeing to disassemble. In that case, they were punished. Whatever method that was used, they must be disassembled in some way. You suggest arresting them, but people also suffer and die in jails on occasion. In fact, I think I would rather be pepper-sprayed than spend the night in a jail in Oakland. This does not mean there will be no violence in jail, either. I see no true-fired method for disassembling without the use of force or other that involves some measure of risk and suffering.
    Not how when authoritarians defend authority all notion of the rule of law goes out the window. The laws that the cops broke are invalid and stupid, the laws the victims broke are heinous and deserving of punishment.

    You dont believe in the law and order, you believe in people with power shitting on people without power. The law is just a convenient justification to be quickly thrown away when it no longer suits your purposes.
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  4. #204
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Critical Hit View Post
    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/11/2...epper-sprayed/

    Filthy hippie. Clearly she deserved this, just like that old lady.
    "Deserve" is a bit strong but she should have gone with her gut when she said she was hesitant to involve herself because she was pregnant. Wrong place, wrong time.

    I include pregnant women to the list of people that shouldn't be rallying around riot police. To some extent people need to use common sense and employ some personal responsibility in situations like this.

  5. #205
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by swordpath View Post
    I include pregnant women to the list of people that shouldn't be rallying around riot police. To some extent people need to use common sense and employ some personal responsibility in situations like this.
    Right. Because the police will likely not use common sense, and will not be held personally responsible for their actions.

  6. #206
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    Right. Because the police will likely not use common sense, and will not be held personally responsible for their actions.
    They've used their training for such events appropriately (at least in dealing with the crowds around here in Seattle). Like I said, wrong place, wrong time.

    In this instance at least, why would the officers be in trouble for doing their job properly?

    Personal responsibility.

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by swordpath View Post
    They've used their training for such events appropriately (at least in dealing with the crowds around here in Seattle). Like I said, wrong place, wrong time.

    In this instance at least, why would the officers be put on blast for doing their job properly?
    The whole point is that they did not do their job properly.
    John T. Williams was murdered by a cop, 'just doing his job'.
    That pathetic thug of a seattle cop, who pushed a suspect, paralizing him, and cost the city $10 million, was 'just doing his job'.
    Do you see what's at issue? Cops, in many situations, need to use some sense beyond their training, or this kind of abuse will always result.
    So yes, they should be punished/reprimanded/possibly prosecuted for their actions if those actions are excessive, which IMO, they were at UC Davis.

  8. #208
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    The whole point is that they did not do their job properly.
    John T. Williams was murdered by a cop, 'just doing his job'.
    That pathetic thug of a seattle cop, who pushed a suspect, paralizing him, and cost the city $10 million, was 'just doing his job'.
    Do you see what's at issue? Cops, in many situations, need to use some sense beyond their training, or this kind of abuse will always result.
    So yes, they should be punished/reprimanded/possibly prosecuted for their actions if those actions are excessive, which IMO, they were at UC Davis.
    I'm not talking about these old cases of misuse of authority. I'm talking about the pregnant, 19-year old, homeless girl that got herself a miscarriage for voluntarily involving herself in matters with the protest+police.

    Of course there are a number of cases where cops have misused their power. The important thing is to be able to distinguish between a misuse of power and then proper protocol and procedure. That's not always a clear, distinguishable line when all the facts surrounding an incident are not presented to you. The "totality of the circumstances" dictates a lot, when it comes to right/wrong choices within law enforcement.

  9. #209
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    If you had been following me from the beginning I don't think you would find my position extreme.
    Ah, the flaw of viral threads There was no way I was going to scroll back that far.

    This might be the first time someone referred to @ygolo as a troll. Lol
    Ygolo?!!

    I'm totally with you that the police can't be held responsible for unanticipated unlikely results of certain force. But, my understanding of the law is that if it can be anticipated the police have an obligation to not use that force. If someone is wheezing and using asthma inhalers while protesting they should avoid using pepper spray as it could be deadly. If someone is wearing a helmet and is obviously disabled hitting them on the head with a baton would be unwise. These examples may be flawed, but they illustrate the subjective considerations that police must make when applying force on protesters.
    Many times, police err on the side of caution at their own detriment. It's difficult to say what's going to happen.. The end result is, if police are called in in the first place, it is assumed a situation has escalated from a peaceful demonstration to something that needs intervening. They were probably a bit ruthless pepper spraying peaceful demonstrators, and truthfully, the police chief probably should have said "wtf are they doing wrong? Deal with this on your own lady, stop wasting our man hours and talk to your own damn kids." and got his guys out of there. But there's always multiple ways of resolving a situation. Especially with politically-charged issues like this one, the police are just puppets--demonstrators look for opportunities to shine a bad light on anything government-related. The police chief should have taken a step back. The police are there to keep the peace--not to disturb it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Hehe. It's probably happened before. I brought it up to refute the "It's harmless" thing. It is classified as "less-than-lethal force". But "harmless" seems like it's stretching things.
    Failing to see an "It's harmless" remark, I can see where you pulled the other extreme out now. It is pretty harmless, when it's all said and done, but I've been pepper sprayed and I can still vividly remember how much it hurt. Second worst pain in my life. I'm not traumatized or anything crazy like that.. but it is highly effective.
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  10. #210
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swordpath View Post
    "Deserve" is a bit strong but she should have gone with her gut when she said she was hesitant to involve herself because she was pregnant. Wrong place, wrong time.

    I include pregnant women to the list of people that shouldn't be rallying around riot police. To some extent people need to use common sense and employ some personal responsibility in situations like this.
    Who should rally around police?

    What type of person is considered safe in the proximity of police?

    Is the answer police?

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