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  1. #11
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swordpath View Post
    I fully agree that when use of force is used by law enforcement, if there is any question as to the appropriateness of said force, it should be fully analyzed and investigated. At the same time, I think that it's important for the investigation to be done under the understanding of the gray nature of the job (the lack of plain black and white). I think that in this case, it'll be pretty easy to rule justified/unjustified by just going to "the books" though. My feeling is that it was a justified use of force, though I'm curious to know for sure.

    I'll probably end up forgetting about this, so I hope someone keeps this thread updated with any new stories on this incident.
    I think what's upsetting people at their core is that regardless of the lack of severity of the pepper spray, the police did not have the law behind them in their use of power. The chancellor did not have the right to kick them off public property given their peaceful behaviour since there's ample video evidence of officers turning their backs to protestors/ the fact that the protestors are sitting, etc. As soon as people in positions of power lose sight of the law it turns us from a democracy into something else.

    There's a 9th circuit ruling specifically outlining this pepper spray illegality http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-circuit/1332957.html

    There must be space for students to assert their right to decide on the form of their protest, their dissent, and their civil disobedience—including the simple act of setting up tents in solidarity with other students who have done so. There must be space for protest and dissent, especially, when the object of protest and dissent is police brutality itself. You may not order police to forcefully disperse student protesters peacefully protesting police brutality. You may not do so. It is not an option available to you as the Chancellor of a UC campus. That is why I am calling for your immediate resignation.
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  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    Typical liberal protestors using non-violent civil disobedience in support of a sloppy movement.

    Typical conservative police using pepper spray as a means of achiving their dominance.
    Why frame this as a liberal/conservative thing?

    To me this about whether or not the police used excessive force. The political leanings of the protesters and police involved seems incidental.

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  3. #13
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Why frame this as a liberal/conservative thing?

    To me this about whether or not the police used excessive force. The political leanings of the protesters and police involved seems incidental.
    Exactly. We first have to have a genuinely democratic hierarchy of power before it matters which kind of people are functioning within that hierarchy of power.

    When civil rights are violated by those with power there is no longer a functioning democracy. That's illegal behaviour as per the 9th circuit ruling I cited above and as per the fact that it's a public university, not a private one, so the chancellor doesn't have the right to kick them off if they're peaceably protesting. She is not above the constitution, she needs to submit to the constitution first and foremost.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  4. #14
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swordpath View Post
    I think justified use of force is slightly different when it comes to dealing with defiant crowds (regardless of their initial demeanor), but that's just my feeling/guess about it. I don't know specifically if that is true or not. I really don't see any of the officers in this video getting into serious doo doo for this though. It might not have been the BEST way to go about handling the situation. It does LOOK bad, regardless of whether it's technically a justified use of force or not.

    But really, if the crowd is repeatedly warned of impending use of force to remove them, why the hell would you stick around? That's like playing chicken with a stove top. All bias aside, it's pretty stupid on the protestors' part. But does anyone really expect differently?
    If a crowd isn't "defiant", then what's the point? You might as well not even protest. The police getting violent plays into the hands of the protesters, anyway. Now they're martyrs and the police look like assholes. Good for them.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #15
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swordpath View Post
    I think justified use of force is slightly different when it comes to dealing with defiant crowds (regardless of their initial demeanor), but that's just my feeling/guess about it. I don't know specifically if that is true or not. I really don't see any of the officers in this video getting into serious doo doo for this though. It might not have been the BEST way to go about handling the situation. It does LOOK bad, regardless of whether it's technically a justified use of force or not.

    But really, if the crowd is repeatedly warned of impending use of force to remove them, why the hell would you stick around? That's like playing chicken with a stove top. All bias aside, it's pretty stupid on the protestors' part. But does anyone really expect differently?
    If a crowd isn't "defiant", then what's the point? You might as well not even protest. The police getting violent plays into the hands of the protesters, anyway. Now they're martyrs and the police look like assholes. Good for them.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #16
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    More food for thought:

    http://bicyclebarricade.wordpress.co...da-p-b-katehi/

    Also @swordpath according to this letter the pepper spray was sprayed directly into the mouths of students, that seems like a misuse/excessive use of pepper spray. Non lethal weapons can still kill people when used improperly/excessively.
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  7. #17
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    More food for thought:

    http://bicyclebarricade.wordpress.co...da-p-b-katehi/

    Also @swordpath according to this letter the pepper spray was sprayed directly into the mouths of students, that seems like a misuse/excessive use of pepper spray. Non lethal weapons can still kill people when used improperly/excessively.
    Sounds like they where deliberately trying to inflict pain as a deterrant to the behaviour they where brought out to deal with, to be honest its only going to contribute to anti-police feeling, whether than pans out as supporting radical groups, supporting cuts to police forces or just being a jerk the police should wise up.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Jack427's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    [YOUTUBE="BjnR7xET7Uo"]...[/YOUTUBE]

    http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/19/us/cal...html?hpt=hp_t1

    Now this is when police cross the line. No matter if the policemen are getting scared are not, there is almost no reason to pepper spray a group of people doing no harm. You may think a riot somewhere in Oakland may warrant the use of tear-gas/pepper-spray/batons. But from any stand-point, those students weren't causing any harm.
    Those kids tore down a fence to make a camp, and now the camp is spreading to a public park. These people are getting in the way, and like the police officers said, pepper spray is easier than picking those people up.

  9. #19
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Also @swordpath according to this letter the pepper spray was sprayed directly into the mouths of students, that seems like a misuse/excessive use of pepper spray. Non lethal weapons can still kill people when used improperly/excessively.
    Huh? I watched the video, don't really need a letter. The pepper spray was sprayed into the faces of the students... Exactly where the intended target is. If some caught a mouthful, that's pretty unfortunate. I dunno about anyone else, but if I were being sprayed my mouth and eyes would be sealed instinctively.

  10. #20
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack427 View Post
    Those kids tore down a fence to make a camp, and now the camp is spreading to a public park. These people are getting in the way, and like the police officers said, pepper spray is easier than picking those people up.
    1. They were in no way, shape, or form being surrounded. Judging by the video, they were not surrounded, they could easily get out of the mess.
    2. Their excuse for using the pepper-spray was because they were surrounded and they needed a way out.
    3. Follow through.

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