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  1. #181
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    It is not different. The use of the various forms of force are dictated by law or policy. By law, the protesters were neither violent nor hostile, and so pepper spray was not warranted. Also, in all the death cases you mentioned, the issue would need be investigated (at least in a civilized country).

    I cannot see how the officers lives were in danger. I can't see how 11 scrawny unarmed kids could do anything to about as many armored and armed police officers.



    Do you really believe this?

    The right to peaceful assembly is not just in the Bill of Rights, it is a human right.

    You can try to use semantics to say that non-compliance is not peaceful. But the same reasoning justifies the crack-downs by governments all around the world.

    I ask you again, in what circumstances WOULD you consider the police using excessive force? What principles separate justified vs. excessive force?
    I believe in the right to peaceful assembly. I do not believe in the right to override the orders of police officers, and continue to remain assembled, against orders. This is what I am referring to. The kids would not move, they refused to disassemble, so they got sprayed. They put themselves in the line of danger, willingly. They were not violent or hostile, but they were not agreeing to disassemble. In that case, they were punished. Whatever method that was used, they must be disassembled in some way. You suggest arresting them, but people also suffer and die in jails on occasion. In fact, I think I would rather be pepper-sprayed than spend the night in a jail in Oakland. This does not mean there will be no violence in jail, either. I see no true-fired method for disassembling without the use of force or other that involves some measure of risk and suffering.
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  2. #182
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    The kids would not move, they refused to disassemble, so they got sprayed. They put themselves in the line of danger, willingly. They were not violent or hostile, but they were not agreeing to disassemble. In that case, they were punished. Whatever method that was used, they must be disassembled in some way.
    If someone is breaking the law, why is that person not arrested? Placing the individual under arrest would achieve dis-assembly without violating the law. I believe that many laws were violated here and that many individuals should be arrested.

  3. #183
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    It's like you are pigeonholing anyone who doesn't agree with the protests into some anti-progressive, bible thumping, super right wing bigots. Which makes you only appear to be someone who is engaging in excessively black and white thinking - even if it is in jest.
    Well, if you don't agree with the protests because they are "illegal" or because they are acting in opposition to police authority, you are pretty anti-progressive because you defend private and/or state authority before you defend civil liberties. If you don't agree with them because you don't believe they will change anything, you are pretty anti-progressive because you do not believe in incremental change through political action. And finally, if you don't agree with the ideas behind the protests (i.e., protesting the concentration of wealth, regressive economic policies, corporate/government corruption, illegal financial activity, corporate/financial greed and unethical practices), then you are simply anti-progressive by definition and probably would not dispute the fact.
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  4. #184

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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    I believe in the right to peaceful assembly. I do not believe in the right to override the orders of police officers, and continue to remain assembled, against orders. This is what I am referring to.
    What is the value of the right to assemble if authority can disassemble people on a whim?

    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    The kids would not move, they refused to disassemble, so they got sprayed. They put themselves in the line of danger, willingly. They were not violent or hostile, but they were not agreeing to disassemble. In that case, they were punished.
    It is not the place of an arresting or investigating officer to dole out punishment. We have a legal system. People have a right to a trial before any punishment is doled out.

    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    Whatever method that was used, they must be disassembled in some way. You suggest arresting them, but people also suffer and die in jails on occasion. In fact, I think I would rather be pepper-sprayed than spend the night in a jail in Oakland.
    What you would rather have done to you is irrelevant.

    Again, we have a legal system, and due process. The police are not above the law. They have to follow the rules too.

    Pepper-spray is considered excessive under the law when the those involved are neither violent nor hostile (look at what beefeater posted).

    Of course, the police officers have to go through due process as well. But from the video-tape, it looks like the officers broke the law too. (remember: the law the protesters broke was just blocking a sidewalk)

    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    This does not mean there will be no violence in jail, either. I see no true-fired method for disassembling without the use of force or other that involves some measure of risk.
    Again, not the point. Laws. Police need to follow them too.

    It is not expected that the arresting officers guarantee safety of those being arrested. That is the job of those running the jails. If they aren't doing their jobs well, then that is an issue too.

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  5. #185
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    Pepper spray?

    Pepper spray???

    Pfft.

    I miss the good ol' days. Back then, whenever some Negroes got uppity, the cops knew how to take care of the situation, and it didn't involve some candy-ass food additive.


  6. #186
    wholly charmed Spartacuss's Avatar
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  7. #187
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swordpath View Post
    How do you figure? If there is non-compliance, should law enforcement be expected to give up and go home? I see what you're saying, but what is your proposed solution in this incident at the campus?
    I'm not saying they should give up and go home. As a civilian in society.. if I believe I'm doing the right thing, then no one is going to tell me to simply pack up and go home because I'm disturbing their dainty little worlds. And I have a right to that. and I'd be happy to be pepper sprayed and dragged out of there instead of quietly scooting along.

    I don't think the police were completely at fault. I just don't think the civilians did anything wrong, nor did they openly threaten the police. They kept them from doing what they were called out to do, but I don't know if proactive measures can be taken for the attempt to the threaten. If training has to change because of this, so be it. But you make decisions based on the circumstances.. and deal with the consequences. I wouldn't lose any sleep over pepper spraying the wrong guy if it meant I lived another day.

    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    In serious asthma sufferers, it has happened. There have also been deaths by batons, jail deaths, rubber bullets, tear gas, and every other use of force. So, why is pepper spray so much different? I would think that if someone has a health condition, they would know better than to refuse to move out of the way of pepper-spray. I stand on the side of personal responsibility. When you decide to remain and not disassemble, you are risking your life. That's the name of the game, and the way it is played.
    I agree entirely.
    Using pepper spray. It's a valid tactic, and it always has been. I don't see why everyone's panties are in a twist. Accidents happen on the road all the time where people die and no one is demanding that we all switch to bicycles. YES, pepper spray CAN be deadly. So can misquitoes carrying diseases, spoons in the eye, and any other crazy thing you can watch on 1000 ways to die. But pepper spray is NOT deadly force, and it is insane to think that one or two people's random happenstance would change that. I think more people have died from sharks than pepper spray to the face.

    Police show up to disperse something, you can bet nonlethal tactics can and will be deployed. Anyone who isn't aware of that probably has been living under a rock the past 100 years and isn't going to be at protests anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Yes, under some circumstances protesting is dangerous. But, you used that risk as an excuse for police to take action that may directly and knowingly result in death. Our government has never allowed police to use deadly force when trying to arrest someone for breaking a city ordinance. It is the responsibility of the police to avoid using deadly force. committing a misdemeanor does not get rid of all police responsibility to avoid using deadly force.
    Pepper spray isn't deadly force.


    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    What is the value of the right to assemble if authority can disassemble people on a whim?
    This.

    It is not the place of an arresting or investigating officer to dole out punishment. We have a legal system. People have a right to a trial before any punishment is doled out.
    And this.

    Pepper-spray is considered excessive under the law when the those involved are neither violent nor hostile (look at what beefeater posted).
    In this particular situation, I do think it was excessive. But I can understand why it was deployed, being on the other side of that column every time. Doesn't mean consequences won't happen, but in those sort of jobs you always are at risk to make the wrong decision. Decision making is probably the most important aspect to careers that protect and serve.
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  8. #188
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post


    Pepper spray isn't deadly force.
    That's a bit out of context. Really my point was that the police ought not ignore the safety of citizens in the name of just getting the job done. Responsibility of the well-being of protestors rests in both the hands of officers and protestors. Officers have an affirmative duty to avoid excessive force under the circumstances which means they must consider the impact of the particular tactic on the particular protestors. @ICUP seems to be under the impression that police have carte Blanche to treat the protestors in whatever way necessary to get the job done and any repercussions Are entirely the responsibility of the protestors.

    Nonetheless, It seems to me that the definition of deadly force is subjective and depends on the circumstances. Since pepper spray may kill it's use may be deadly force. If you can point me to a source that says the definition of deadly force is objective or for some other reason could never be considered deadly force I will concede the point to you.

    Regardless, my broader point stands.
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  9. #189
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Well, if you don't agree with the protests because they are "illegal" or because they are acting in opposition to police authority, you are pretty anti-progressive because you defend private and/or state authority before you defend civil liberties. If you don't agree with them because you don't believe they will change anything, you are pretty anti-progressive because you do not believe in incremental change through political action. And finally, if you don't agree with the ideas behind the protests (i.e., protesting the concentration of wealth, regressive economic policies, corporate/government corruption, illegal financial activity, corporate/financial greed and unethical practices), then you are simply anti-progressive by definition and probably would not dispute the fact.
    The point is that the language suggests demonizing any opposition instead of showing that there are variety of viewpoints and understandings, not to mention a variety of ways to view these conflicts outside one categorization.

    In fact, this is so much a part of the reason why I am against the protests in the first place - it's this very problem - it has little to do with combating authority at all.

    I understand that this is part of of movements which I admire which have happened in the past - the civil rights movement is a good example. I believe that was a justified movement, but there were aspects of that movement I would have disliked - large groups of people who were just angry, ranting and yelling slogans which hold little real intellectual weight. But in the end, that was a movement based around unification - ending segregation - and combating prejudice, a goal I hold in high regard, because prejudice of all kinds keeps people from any sort of meaningful understandings - without which you cannot have change. Underpinning all of this was the clear understanding that blacks and persons of color were not and are not inferior. Many people protested and fought against police. I'd like to think that I'd be there with them - disobedient. I have no issue fighting against the state.

    Furthermore, I support peaceful demonstrations of solidarity.

    The protests here are based on less clear aims. Something is wrong - but there isn't a clear goal. Something is wrong and something needs to happen - so be angry. Great. And this doesn't seem to be a unifying movement. Camp out in the street? Take over parks? The lines here are considerably less clear. If you take out a loan you can't pay back - is that your fault, or the banks? What if the bank encouraged it in mass? Do the banks have special obligations considering their position of power? If you bail out an institution, do you think they will use it wisely compared to the average person? Should you bail anyone out? Is it wrong to want to be rich? Mega rich? Is a job a right? What about ingenuity? At what point do you draw a line on "dire straights?" What is the role of government here? Charity? Education? What is fair?

    These questions are complex.

    I feel like the mob is an inappropriate way to try and figure out these problems. Perhaps out of all this will come some sort of forum - but with a charged and hostile atmosphere, this will not happen. With tactics which alienate - this will not happen. Without a clear unifying theme, the tactics being used encourage hostility rather than reform.
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  10. #190
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    @ICUP seems to be under the impression that police have carte Blanche to treat the protestors in whatever way necessary to get the job done and any repercussions Are entirely the responsibility of the protestors.
    I feel you making your point put you at the entirely opposite end of the spectrum. Two extremes on either side.

    Nonetheless, It seems to me that the definition of deadly force is subjective and depends on the circumstances. Since pepper spray may kill it's use may be deadly force. If you can point me to a source that says the definition of deadly force is objective or for some other reason could never be considered deadly force I will concede the point to you.
    May is not Is. The source of what is considered deadly force comes from the training of the police forces. like I said.. Cars CAN be deadly, but it doesn't stop people from driving them every day. I could almost bet money if you got into an accident, hydroplaning for instance, hit a car, and killed someone in the process, that you'd not just be like "Well I guess I'm going to jail for life, I knew this car could potentially be deadly to someone sometime if certain stars aligned. No no, really. I insist. I had no idea someone would die, but please arrest me now because I SHOULD have assumed." Pepper spray is taught in law enforcement to not be something of deadly force. We might as well label everything as deadly just to be on the safe side, and maybe police will use pillows until someone complains they were suffocated with one, and then those pesky police will finally quit doing their jobs.

    In Iraq, SHOOTING at a vehicle was NOT considered deadly force. The training dictates what is used for what levels, and what consitutes deadly force or not. A warning shot at a vehicle was not deadly force, even though a gun could technically kill someone.

    I just think this whole thing about pepper spray killing people is a bit much. I didn't mean to pick on your post in particular, I just didn't feel like scrolling all the way back for the troll that started that. Regardless of whether it was necessary to use it or not, it doesn't make it deadly. People just randomly throw that in there in discussions like this. Discussee 1: "Well she shouldn't have been beating her kid with a spoon, ya know.." trollface: "PEOPLE HAVE DIED FROM WOODEN SPOONS BEFORE!" Discussee 2: "Oooh yeah, what about them apples?!"
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