User Tag List

First 81617181920 Last

Results 171 to 180 of 238

  1. #171
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    4,805

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    When you decide to remain and not disassemble, you are risking your life. That's the name of the game, and the way it is played.
    This is America not china. Your statement is insane.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  2. #172

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by swordpath View Post
    I'm not saying the officer that used the pepper spray made the best decision on how to handle the situation, but he did make a decision; that is what officers are called to do, in more often than not, "gray" situations. Whether it was the best or optimal decision is the main question in my mind. I feel like the use of force was justifiable, but maybe not optimal (and definitely won't go over well to the casual onlookers). A big problem I see is that I don't think the officer(s) were prepared to deal with this kind of situation and the way the situation was handled displays that. If the school is ready to throw the officers under the bus for the decision they make, they better be damn ready to spend some time extensively researching proper ways to handle these situations for future officers and outlining it in black and white as best as they can, instead of asking law enforcement to step in and remove the students and then coming down on them when it came time for a physical force. -- Th officer knew he was being video taped. He knew what he was doing, but it may not have been the best decision in hindsight. It's always easy to Monday quarterback these incidents though, where the full picture and all the facts aren't presented to us clearly.
    I completely agree with the bolded part.

    It's unfortunate that human beings are placed in situations that are tough, and get strong consequences as a result.

    Toyota engineers and managers were humans too. They made decisions too. But they were still culpable for their mistakes that resulted in the run-away cars.

    I think mistakes were made by many in power.

    We are all human. We can certainly empathize with the people involved. But we cannot absolve them of responsibility or consequences.

    I frankly, would never want to be in the position of those officers. But I would not want to be the students blocking the sidewalk either.

    Both parties made decisions, both received (or will receive) consequences. The alleged crimes are obstructing a side walk, and the use of excessive force. I think, if you step back a bit, you will see which is worse (if true).

    BTW, I think Air Traffic Controllers running on little sleep and falling asleep on the job, or Resident Doctors making mistakes for the same reasons are problems too. These are systemic problems. Perhaps the lack of training of officers for these situations is another systemic problem.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  3. #173
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/sp
    Posts
    1,793

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    This is America not china. Your statement is insane.
    Ummm..... I live near Oakland. These aren't college protests we're talking about. People get seriously injured in them, and it happens relatively often. Yes, there have been deaths related to protesting, and 3 linked to the Occupy movement.

    It's a definite risk to your life to engage in protesting, especially if you refuse to disassemble. Mostly when there are crowds of people, at least someone gets injured.
    ISTP 6w5 sx/sp
    6-8-4/6-9-4 Tritype

  4. #174
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    MBTI
    ISTx
    Posts
    10,552

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    Ummm..... I live near Oakland. These aren't college protests we're talking about. People get seriously injured in them, and it happens relatively often. Yes, there have been deaths related to protesting, and 3 linked to the Occupy movement.

    It's a definite risk to your life to engage in protesting, especially if you refuse to disassemble. Mostly when there are crowds of people, someone gets injured.
    Oakland don't play :P

  5. #175
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    2,739

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    It's a definite risk to your life to engage in protesting, especially if you refuse to disassemble. Mostly when there are crowds of people, someone gets injured.
    Where would you say that these injuries tend to come from? I too have witnessed many injured protesters.

  6. #176
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/sp
    Posts
    1,793

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by swordpath View Post
    Oakland don't play :P
    Don't hate the playa, hate the game.
    ISTP 6w5 sx/sp
    6-8-4/6-9-4 Tritype

  7. #177
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    4,805

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    Ummm..... I live near Oakland. These aren't college protests we're talking about. People get seriously injured in them, and it happens relatively often. Yes, there have been deaths related to protesting, and 3 linked to the Occupy movement.

    It's a definite risk to your life to engage in protesting, especially if you refuse to disassemble. Mostly when there are crowds of people, someone gets injured.
    Yes, under some circumstances protesting is dangerous. But, you used that risk as an excuse for police to take action that may directly and knowingly result in death. Our government has never allowed police to use deadly force when trying to arrest someone for breaking a city ordinance. It is the responsibility of the police to avoid using deadly force. committing a misdemeanor does not get rid of all police responsibility to avoid using deadly force.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  8. #178
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/sp
    Posts
    1,793

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Yes, under some circumstances protesting is dangerous. But, you used that risk as an excuse for police to take action that may directly and knowingly result in death.
    I did? When exactly did this happen?
    ISTP 6w5 sx/sp
    6-8-4/6-9-4 Tritype

  9. #179

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    In serious asthma sufferers, it has happened. There have also been deaths by batons, jail deaths, rubber bullets, tear gas, and every other use of force. So, why is pepper spray so much different?
    It is not different. The use of the various forms of force are dictated by law or policy. By law, the protesters were neither violent nor hostile, and so pepper spray was not warranted. Also, in all the death cases you mentioned, the issue would need be investigated (at least in a civilized country).

    I cannot see how the officers lives were in danger. I can't see how 11 scrawny unarmed kids could do anything to about as many armored and armed police officers.

    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    I would think that if someone has a health condition, they would know better than to refuse to move out of the way of pepper-spray. I stand on the side of personal responsibility. When you decide to remain and not disassemble, you are risking your life. That's the name of the game, and the way it is played.
    Do you really believe this?

    The right to peaceful assembly is not just in the Bill of Rights, it is a human right.

    You can try to use semantics to say that non-compliance is not peaceful. But the same reasoning justifies the crack-downs by governments all around the world.

    I ask you again, in what circumstances WOULD you consider the police using excessive force? What principles separate justified vs. excessive force?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  10. #180
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    4,805

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    I did? When exactly did this happen?
    You claimed that pepper spray is not excessive force (an opinion not supported by any state or the federal govt in these situations). When it was pointed out that asthma sufferers may die you claimed it's the asthma sufferers fault. Remember excessive force depends on the circumstances.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

Similar Threads

  1. UC Irvine Student Leaders Veto Ban on American Flag
    By Hard in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 03-08-2015, 02:46 PM
  2. Innocent bystander maliciously pepper sprayed by police at OAA protests
    By Hate in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-29-2011, 04:27 PM
  3. Use of pepper spray by moderators
    By JAVO in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 11-21-2011, 11:27 PM
  4. Anyone go to UC Davis?
    By Ezra in forum Academics and Careers
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 07-10-2010, 12:28 PM
  5. Help A Science Student Writing A History Paper for her Condensed Summer Class!
    By Usehername in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 07-14-2007, 02:55 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO