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  1. #151
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swordpath View Post
    *Seated persons [blocking walking path], in other words, opposed to school ordinance. Students are unresponsive to directives passed down by law and commands made by the school and law enforcement. Therefore, use of force is certainly justified in order to regain order and preserve the integrity of said ordinances. How are you missing this? It's just common sense, dude...

    All I can gather is that you don't respect the laws, and therefore don't respect the enforcers of the laws. So, there's nothing I can do for you in this argument.
    This is the crux of the issue. The commanding officers, chancellor, and front line officers may have power, but since when did that power suprecede the protesters first amendment rights? Just because they are in positions of lawful power doesn't mean they were executing their power lawfully.

    The officers are following their orders. But why would a chancellor of a PUBLIC institution have the power to tell people they can't PUBLICLY demonstrate their first amendment rights unless they are violently demonstrating?

    Civil disobedience is a constitutional right. Disobedience does not equal violence.

    You say, "all I can gather is that you don't respect the laws," but violating one's right to civil disobedience is disrespectful of laws.
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  2. #152
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    I feel that by calling the protesters satirically overblown names as insults you are further ostracizing anyone who would engage you in a discussion. It's like you are pigeonholing anyone who doesn't agree with the protests into some anti-progressive, bible thumping, super right wing bigots. Which makes you only appear to be someone who is engaging in excessively black and white thinking - even if it is in jest.

    I suppose you have your position but for the sake of discourse - and your own cause - you might want to tone it down a bit. Repeatably insulting your opponents intelligence, or putting them into a narrow box only will breed more hostility. If the goal is to overthrow the current system, you might want to go the hostile route. If you want reform, a more cooperative route will be cause much less fallout.

    Just my observation.

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  3. #153
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    This is the crux of the issue. The commanding officers, chancellor, and front line officers may have power, but since when did that power suprecede the protesters first amendment rights? Just because they are in positions of lawful power doesn't mean they were executing their power lawfully.

    The officers are following their orders. But why would a chancellor of a PUBLIC institution have the power to tell people they can't PUBLICLY demonstrate their first amendment rights unless they are violently demonstrating?

    Civil disobedience is a constitutional right. Disobedience does not equal violence.

    You say, "all I can gather is that you don't respect the laws," but violating one's right to civil disobedience is disrespectful of laws.
    I get your point. But, civil disobedience is not a constitutional right. You do have a right not to have excessive force used against you if you are practicing civil disobedience.
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  4. #154
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    I get your point. But, civil disobedience is not a constitutional right. You do have a right not to have excessive force used against you if you are practicing civil disobedience.
    How could one practice civil disobedience?

  5. #155
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Let's not undervalue the pain of being sprayed in the face by pepper spray. Sure, you'll be fine later, but it looks like it hurts like a son of a bitch, and a lot of people would rather take an also non leathal baton to the gut instead. There are lots of ways of inflicting pain without incurring much damage, ask a good torturer sometime. This doesn't mean that it's not an attack and that it was reasonable at the time.

  6. #156
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swordpath View Post
    Because they've already shown disobedience and non-compliant behavior. That is exponentially threatening when it's a large group. Your so naive sometimes it hurts.

    I also suggest doing a ride along with your local department, like MDP mentioned. May not change your mind about much, but you will get a realistic, first hand experience of what an officer's typical day looks like.
    Having worked in this sort of environment before... You're always on edge. Such things come with the job. It's what you're paid to do.
    I don't feel too bad for people who get papercuts that work in an office.

    Disobedience is arguably warranted -- an order to remove people may or may not take precedence over rights to assembly. It's fair to ask which the government takes more seriously (and I'd argue it be the latter) before just rolling over and doing as told. I'd be surprised if people protested and then walked away so easily when told to do so.

    Non-compliance does not warrant a threat. If we attacked everyone in Iraq that was disobedient and non-compliant, we'd have human rights issues and violations more than we could ever hope to arrest. I don't know why we'd treat our own citizens with any less respect.
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  7. #157
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    How could one practice civil disobedience?
    By breaking an ordinance by blocking a public passageway or trespassing during an otherwise peaceful protest.
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  8. #158
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    Heh. Join the club.
    I'm not trying to form sides here, just stating what I see.
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  9. #159

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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    Why not?

    Honestly, have you ever been pepper-sprayed? The police probably pepper-sprayed because it was less-violent than batons. And, they couldn't arrest for some reason..... who knows their reasons. But I definitely don't consider being pepper-sprayed "excessive".
    I have not been pepper sprayed. This is irrelevant. The fact is people were hospitalized. Even if some people handle it well, there have been cases of death from the use of pepper spray.

    The police are the once who held the power, and the ones in this situation with the burden of proof. The are supposed to be upholders of the law.

    beefeater posted the statute. According to the law, peper-spray is only justified when the perpetrators are violent or hostile. Otherwise, it is excessive. That is the law.

    I mean c'mon the alleged crime of the protesters here was blocking a sidewalk. The alleged crime of the police officers is the use of excessive force.

    We refer to law on these matters, not someone saying "I can take being pepper-sprayed, it's nothing."

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  10. #160
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    I'm not trying to form sides here.
    Neither am I. It wasn't meant to be taken literally. It just meant, "I agree with you." Sorry for supporting you.
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