User Tag List

First 51314151617 Last

Results 141 to 150 of 238

  1. #141

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by swordpath View Post
    Think or assume? Truly curious. What makes you believe they were not warned/informed?
    Well, think. I watched a lot of the videos. In some you can make out what the officer said to the student.

    Quote Originally Posted by swordpath View Post
    I'm sure there are ways to get around the students, but still, apparently it's unlawful to camp out on the pathway in the manner that they were... Otherwise, I don't think they would have been confronted about it.
    I am not talking about whether that broke the law or not. But calling those 11 students a "crowd" when there were clearly about as many, if not more officers there seems like it stretching things.

    Quote Originally Posted by swordpath View Post
    I do not think so. Like I said, pepper spray is virtually harmless and it falls on the "less severe" side of the use of force continuum. It's obvious that use of force was justified in that situation, as the crowd had made it obvious they had no intentions of listening/leaving anytime soon.
    There are varying levels of force. Frankly, they seemed so docile, that even the way they were arrested after the spray seemed unnecessary.

    Hospitalization did result for 2 of the kids. That is "less severe" considering they have lethal force as an option.

    Was it appropriate for the situation though? That is what upsets people. It seemed overblown. The other situations in other places have their own considerations. In a lot of those places, responses seem overblown too. That is what is making more and more people join these protesters in other places.

    Let's make this as objective as possible. What is the checklist for cops? What principles dictate what is appropriate vs. excessive force?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  2. #142
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    MBTI
    ISTx
    Posts
    10,552

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    I have to understand your viewpoint. I am naive. Many would argue that the presence of a seated person on a sidewalk could constitute a threat. I believe that we can move past this nuance and justify the use of force, given the circumstances.
    *Seated persons [blocking walking path], in other words, opposed to school ordinance. Students are unresponsive to directives passed down by law and commands made by the school and law enforcement. Therefore, use of force is certainly justified in order to regain order and preserve the integrity of said ordinances. How are you missing this? It's just common sense, dude...

    All I can gather is that you don't respect the laws, and therefore don't respect the enforcers of the laws. So, there's nothing I can do for you in this argument.

  3. #143
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    2,739

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    What principles dictate what is appropriate vs. excessive force?
    Sitting down would constitute excessive, inappropriate force. This we can all agree on, I believe.

  4. #144
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    7,917

    Default

    That's bear mace, I've sprayed that before and felt like I was getting sprayed myself. I've been sprayed a bit messing around with the normal stuff, and it absolutely kills in the short-term. No matter what nonviolent obstruction of a walkway they were doing, they need credit for sitting their ground that long.

    Quote Originally Posted by swordpath View Post
    First of all, pepper spray is harmless... Any officer that carries it has been sprayed with it, in training, on at least one occasion. It stings, and sucks a lot, but it's absolutely harmless (it's literally a food product). The crowd's defiance against clear orders from law enforcement to scram warrants the use of pepper spray in order to make arrests, and minimize the chance of an unruly crowd to become hostile and combative.

    Of course school administration at one of the most Liberal schools in the nation is going to make a stink about this incident if the police do anything other than ask the protestors if they can take them by the hand and skip merrily out of the park together.
    There's plenty of prisoners who would purposely force a cell extractions, and normally they would get beat downs, but when they introduced pepper spray, most stopped instantly.

  5. #145
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    XXFP
    Posts
    2,706

    Default

    If I were arresting the group of Davis protestors, Here's what I'd do. I'm not trained in any way, but this is my guess.

    I would have a small team of guys. Considering the size and potential volatility of the crowd, I'd want 5 men (including me) for each one arrest for my protection and to less the likelihood of resistance which 1) makes my job easier and 2) lessens the chance that people decide to do something like attack me, at which point me and my guys would retaliate and hurt them. I really don't want to hurt them, but I do see they are creating a potentially hazardous situation (large crowd, angry, no clear motive - a recipe for a riot).

    Ideally I have as many guys as possible, but I only have so many resources I can devote to this.

    I would like and try to hear the people out, but other examples have shown me that these people might stay for months. Literally, an occupation. The people who own the property do not want this.

    My first guess is try to negotiate.

    Let's say you send in a negotiator. But the thing is, the crowd doesn't have a clear motive or purpose. This is actually quite common for negotiators: most cases are "enraged persons."

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=130103016 - NPR interview with negotiator Gary Noesner.

    But how do you communicate with the crowd? Just start talking? You might be able to convince a very small portion in your close vicinity, assuming they don't start chanting at you.

    This plan doesn't really work so well with such a big crowd with no established leader.

    ---

    I would approach the crowd with my team in riot gear(this is assuming they have already been asked to vacate). Two men slightly ahead of me, I'm central, two guys behind, shields and pepper spray up and clearly displayed. I'd pick the person on the end of the row for arrest. Come in, and as approaching give warning: "This is your final warning: leave the area or you will be arrested."

    Examine effects (let's say none).

    At this point I need to break the guy off the end of the row so I can arrest him. Form a circle around him. At this point my guys have pepper spray up as a threat - they are instructed to back people off with shields and to give the command "Stand back" and give extra warning/point the spray at anyone looking hostile but to not spray or ram people unless provoked/defending. Let's say this works.

    Now I have to cuff him. Ideally get him on his stomach and ziptie. Let's say he complies. Crowd is going to get upset (at the least, they will get louder/more emotional at this point) but I got my perimeter control backing them off with shields. Let's say this works.

    Ok, got him on his feet, hands behind his back. Now we have to march him out of there. He's central, I'm walking behind him, two guys front, two back, tight formation, same threat display with the mace with repeated command "Stand back or you'll be maced." Get him out of the fray, and let's say this works and the crowd doesn't follow us to the cruiser. Put him there, or in the van, where there is another group of guys waiting to take him. Ideally there are also a good number of support crew guys who have a path to van cleared through the crowd and are keeping them back, but for any distance you might need 10, 20 or even more people.

    Now we walk back through the crowd to the next person to arrest.

    ---

    Now, let's examine what may happen if something doesn't go according to plan at various steps.

    Back to the start, where I show up with my crew and we break a guy off the end of the row. They back off the surrounding crowd with shields and threat display. If the people sitting next to him don't move then we are going to have to drag him away a few feet to form a perimeter. The crowd doesn't like this and they start banging up on my shielded guys, I push the guy on the dirt and ziptie him, pick him up quick - I'm a little panicked with this pissed off crowd around me, and I'm rough on the guy I'm arresting - he's going to have a bruise or three. Now we have to move out. Let's say we are able to move this guy out, that's nice, but what if we get some rushers on the perimeter?

    Keep in mind crowd behavior. A few people start running and EVERYONE might start running. We saw this recently at Penn State.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeCEEdyk7c4

    Crowd gets hostile, then what? Ok, the threat display turns into a real threat. All the guys start shoving back with shields and spraying mace. This backs some of the people off, but mace doesn't make you run away - notice how the protesters managed to stay still - only one left after being maced. Now you have a group of blinded and enraged people clawing at you. You also have a trample hazard if anyone falls. You can shove through them, but if they get a grip on the edge of a shield they can pull one of my perimeter guys down, and then we're going to have to use batons. Broken bones result, and one of my guys gets hurt - but with my perimeter compromised, this means that all of us are open to attack now. Bad news. If we come out swinging, maybe that'll back the crowd off. Hopefully. But let's say they are really pissed now. You can't take on 30 people with sticks. Rubber bullets, pop pop pop, serious injuries, maiming, possibly even deaths. More serious injuries effecting more people

    ---

    Ok, but let's say we form our perimeter and it works. We go to arrest the guy, and now he's resisting arrest. He starts screaming something and I have to hold him down to try and get his hands behind his back. Really, I should have another man helping me, let's just say I have 6 guys now. So me and this other guy and shoving this guy down while he's screaming bloody murder. The crowd is charged up. Now I have a similar problem as outlined above. Mace, shoving, batons etc. More serious injuries effecting more people.

    ---

    Let's say we got a guy on his feet. We walk back to the cruiser and we get a crowd of people following us. They are screaming but we maintain our cool. But the crowd forms to block our path. Great. Shoving, mace, batons. More serious injuries effecting more people.

    Let's say they don't block our path but we get to the van/cruiser and people start rushing up on that team guarding the vehicles/detainees. People pushing into the cars. If you get overwhelmed a crowd can rush and flip a van. Tear gas, rubber bullets, batons, shoving. More serious injuries effecting more people

    ---

    You mace them. Show you mean business to start. The crowd starts screaming, but you have a much better controlled situation. Simply: they know you mean business. Overwhelm them, and they won't even start with you.

    Mace wears off quicker than batons and bullets. Personally, I think that was a good option. I would have liked to see what happened before-hand.

    ---

    I don't really like seeing people get hurt, I don't think what happened was ideal. There were a lot of officers there, they probably could have done it cleaner, but it wasn't that bad. But I think you have to consider the many ways this could go wrong.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  6. #146
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    4,809

    Default

    The more I read up on this the more it appears that not only is the use of pepper spray excessive under these circumstances (peaceful protesters), but also the officers themselves may be held personally liable and have their pants sued off.

    Edit: well maybe not their pants sued off, since there are probably only nominal damages, but they could get dragged into court nonetheless.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  7. #147

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by swordpath View Post
    Of course not. I might oppose your viewpoint, but I'm not stupid. Is pepper spray acceptable to use solely under violent situations? Are you suggesting that pepper spray is a violent form of gaining compliance?
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    From a similar tree-hugging case 10 years ago in california the 9th circuit ruled:
    (1) the California Department of Justice had only approved the use of pepper spray on "hostile or violent" subjects;
    http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/...0/1185/564832/
    Beefeater answered your first question.

    Beat, "force" is a euphemism for violence. Like I said, earlier, cops have a great responsibility, because the are allowed to use force(violence). They are expected to use it in their jobs. It is part of the job.

    But we expect them to be upholders of the law and justice. They are agents of the legal system, and need to be among the best the citizenry can offer morally.

    I know these are high standards, but if we let them slip, we end up with a lot of people allowed to use force(violence) without any real idea of what moral lines they are crossing when their doing so.

    Imagine biomedical engineer's and scientists who don't consider the moral implications of what they do. Imagine civil engineer without regard to the fact that mistakes they make can lead to countless deaths. Imagine airplane mechanics being nonchalant about their work. Imagine Doctor's not paying heed to the Hippocratic oath.

    High standards of one type or another are part of being a Pro. This is what society expects. Falling short has dire consequences.

    At the least, the upholders of the laws, have to follow them too.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  8. #148
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    2,739

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Beefeater answered your first question.

    Beat, "force" is a euphemism for violence. Like I said, earlier, cops have a great responsibility, because the are allowed to use force(violence). They are expected to use it in their jobs. It is part of the job.

    But we expect them to be upholders of the law and justice. They are agents of the legal system, and need to be among the best the citizenry can offer morally.

    I know these are high standards, but if we let them slip, we end up with a lot of people allowed to use force(violence) without any real idea of what moral lines they are crossing when their doing so.

    Imagine biomedical engineer's and scientists who don't consider the moral implications of what they do. Imagine civil engineer without regard to the fact that mistakes they make can lead to countless deaths. Imagine airplane mechanics being nonchalant about their work. Imagine Doctor's not paying heed to the Hippocratic oath.

    High standards of one type or another are part of being a Pro. This is what society expects. Falling short has dire consequences.

    At the least, the upholders of the laws, have to follow them too.
    Are police officers considered professionals? Is it even right to hold them to higher standards?

  9. #149
    Senior Member Gish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    STUF
    Posts
    891

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Are police officers considered professionals? Is it even right to hold them to higher standards?
    They receive training and have a uniform. They're definitely professionals, and in some cases they slip up because they are human. Defending them then would be stupid though.
    Whoops.

  10. #150
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    XXFP
    Posts
    2,706

    Default

    I feel that by calling the protesters satirically overblown names as insults you are further ostracizing anyone who would engage you in a discussion. It's like you are pigeonholing anyone who doesn't agree with the protests into some anti-progressive, bible thumping, super right wing bigots. Which makes you only appear to be someone who is engaging in excessively black and white thinking - even if it is in jest.

    I suppose you have your position but for the sake of discourse - and your own cause - you might want to tone it down a bit. Repeatably insulting your opponents intelligence, or putting them into a narrow box only will breed more hostility. If the goal is to overthrow the current system, you might want to go the hostile route. If you want reform, a more cooperative route will be cause much less fallout.

    Just my observation.

    - Bamboo
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

Similar Threads

  1. UC Irvine Student Leaders Veto Ban on American Flag
    By Hard in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 03-08-2015, 02:46 PM
  2. Innocent bystander maliciously pepper sprayed by police at OAA protests
    By Hate in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-29-2011, 04:27 PM
  3. Use of pepper spray by moderators
    By JAVO in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 11-21-2011, 11:27 PM
  4. Anyone go to UC Davis?
    By Ezra in forum Academics and Careers
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 07-10-2010, 12:28 PM
  5. Help A Science Student Writing A History Paper for her Condensed Summer Class!
    By Usehername in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 07-14-2007, 02:55 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO