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  1. #121
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post

    Also, I don't think they were warned of the spray itself. They were warned about the use of force, and arrest.
    The warning might not even be enough depending on the circumstances. The 9th circuit has demanded that that police not only warn of the use of pepper spray, but use the threat of pepper spray to negotiate compliance before use.

    http://www.shouselaw.com/pepperspray.html
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  2. #122
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    There are very few legitimate professions where the use of violence is part of the job. Police and military work are essentially the only occupations. In these occupations, what separates justified use of violence versus unjustified use is of paramount importance. People in these professions have a great deal of power. As a society, we allow behavior by these people that would otherwise be criminal (the use of weapons against people, both lethal and non-lethal for something other than self-defense).

    The justification that "I was just following orders" or "I was just doing my job" is not enough. These reasons are lacking morally, and in places like the U.S., these reasons are lacking legally as well.

    Police and military personal have to realize they are part of a privileged few. With that comes great responsibility. If they are upstanding and know right from wrong, they are the best of our society. I realize that there is a lot of stress, and that most people would not sign up to do this type of job. But, the fact is, they are held to a higher standard, and for good reason.

    Excessive force comes with a steep penalty, because it should. It may be permissible for ordinary citizens to live in the morally grey, but police officers need to avoid that area completely.
    It seems to boil down to whether or not we should blame the officers for choosing to obey orders - thus maintaining their livelihood - instead of doing what might be considered ethical under the circumstances by them as moral agents. An age-old question...

    Also, I might be completely off here, but aren't protests against the government supposed to be unlawful? Since the protesters consider the government ineffective, corrupt, etc.?
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  3. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by swordpath View Post
    It came from a law enforcement forum is what I meant. It was written by a law officer.
    I could have guessed that.

    Beat. Why won't you respond to the more substantive points in my posts?

    The question is simply, what is the justification for the pepper spray? The risk of injury to the officers seems tenuous at best.

    Consider:
    1) There was hardly a crowd of law-breakers, just a handful of them. There were some other protesters, and mostly by-standers.
    2) The perpetrators in question were all seated in front of the officers (who may have actually outnumbered the law-breakers)
    3) The officers had protective gear

    Also as a general question. Would there be any scenario where you would consider what cops did to be excessive? What would those scenarios be?

    Beat, I know you wanted to be a cop at some point. If you are going to be one, I think, you need to know where your moral lines are.

    So what would it take? What would be excessive?

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  4. #124
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gish View Post
    Apparently the alien is reason.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    It is not the job of police to punish.
    Apparently this is too difficult for some to understand.
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  5. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    Apparently the people being sprayed didn't think it was excessive. They didn't move out of the way, or try to avoid it.
    You cannot justify the use of force by the fact that the people didn't move. I hope this was just an attempt at humor.

    People were even beaten to death by unlawful and excessive force when it was clear they couldn't get out of the way.

    Like I said, this is not a cop vs. hippie argument. Don't try to make it into one.

    I will pose the question to you to: "Under what circumstances, would you believe that police used excessive force?"

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  6. #126
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    You cannot justify the use of force by the fact that the people didn't move.
    Why not?

    Honestly, have you ever been pepper-sprayed? The police probably pepper-sprayed because it was less-violent than batons. And, they couldn't arrest for some reason..... who knows their reasons. But I definitely don't consider being pepper-sprayed "excessive".
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  7. #127
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Lol. This had different wording, not even a few seconds ago. What was the source this came from?

    Also, I don't think they were warned of the spray itself. They were warned about the use of force, and arrest.
    Think or assume? Truly curious. What makes you believe they were not warned/informed?

    And again, there weren't a lot of them that were blocking the pathway. I've been on that pathway, it's not that wide.
    I'm sure there are ways to get around the students, but still, apparently it's unlawful to camp out on the pathway in the manner that they were... Otherwise, I don't think the school administration would have asked law enforcement to confront the students about it and have them removed.

    This is not a all cops are bad vs. all protesters are bad debate. The question is quite simply, "was it excessive force?"
    I do not think so. Like I said, pepper spray is virtually harmless and it falls on the "less severe" side of the use of force continuum. It's obvious that use of force was justified in that situation, as the crowd had made it obvious they had no intentions of listening/leaving anytime soon.

  8. #128
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    You cannot justify the use of force by the fact that the people didn't move. I hope this was just an attempt at humor.

    People were even beaten to death by unlawful and excessive force when it was clear they couldn't get out of the way.

    Like I said, this is not a cop vs. hippie argument. Don't try to make it into one.

    I will pose the question to you to: "Under what circumstances, would you believe that police used excessive force?"
    Don't bother. This will just turn into the OWS thread all over again because defending the police, who are in reality indefensible in this situation, is a politically charged position to take. The sides have already been carved out, and any other thread dealing with the subject of protests and police violence will simply be a platform for partisan politics.
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  9. #129
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    Why not?
    Supreme Court

  10. #130
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Supreme Court
    The use of force must be reasonable under the circumstances.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

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