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  1. #1
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Default The most dangerous patterns

    That people can fall into are the unconscious ones.

    Do you agree with that?

    I was reading a source which certainly suggests so recently, it deals mainly with the idea of "intellectualising" certain concepts, defined by the author as the acceptance of something intellectually while affectively-emotively believing something else.

    This can be, they suggest, either in the classic cognitive-dissonance fashion, in which someone either does something or refuses to do something because they have an internal conflict arising or unconscious dilemma or they appear to be doing one thing, for instance providing care to someone, when they in fact doing something else, attempting to control them.

    Its interesting and they talk about how life histories, particularly domestic violence and the first couple of intimate life partnerings (which they think are more significant than parent-child influences in the post-attachment and bonding phases of development, for some people more important where the attachment/bonding phase has been deficient or damaging) can influence politics, professional or life decision making.

    I do think it can be true but I'm not sure that you could say, for instance, that ideologies like nazism or communism all boil down to unconscious internal drives. Not completely.

  2. #2
    Senior Member FunnyDigestion's Avatar
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    Things like Nazism & Communism come principally out of social forces, I believe. I.E, people doing it because everyone else is doing it. There's usually one or two guys who really believe it, & are charismatic, & everyone else coheres around their hypnotic persona... like the "Keeping up with the Joneses" philosophy. & with people like that, the unconcious is the furthest thing from the mind... they have a dormant unconscious. It's very irrelevant to someone doing things like hurling children into an oven what they actually believe... that stuff was discarded a long time ago, or compartmentalized (i.e, "I can ignore this because it's irrelevant to what I'm doing"). It's hard to imagine what an unconscious drive could be. Most of people's drives seem very simplistic-- eat, have sex, survive, have fun, acquire more objects... I don't really believe any of the philosophers who talk about hidden, supra-human motivations. Maybe superhuman...

    Falling into patterns is something people should try to avoid, however. Concepts I've intellectualized that can be harmful if taken personally are entropy, decay, inevitability of life & death, supremacy of violence in the world order, etc...
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  3. #3
    Senior Member FunnyDigestion's Avatar
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    The reason I don't think the unconscious has much to do with it is that the unconscious is extraordinarily powerful... more powerful than anything a person can think in their usual state. To claim that people whose lives consist of doing paperwork, taking orders & bureaucratically engineering subtle mechanisms of evil could be ultimately driven by the unconscious is-- in my opinion-- to do a vast disservice to the unconscious. At best, the unconscious would be providing tiny hints that what that person was doing was not exactly correct. The unconscious wants easy, impossible things... unification in the all, while simultaneously infinite power of self, infinite love, infinite triumph, cessation of time, etc...

    An unconscious pattern of behavior. That's possible, but I believe that unconsciousness is dynamic rather than static... a vivacious, unceasingly active entity, similar to 'life itself' imagined as a singular being.... so what you're describing is actually the result of people being in conflict with their unconscious. To respect the unconscious is to live correctly, I believe.
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  4. #4
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    If you're doing something because everyone else is doing it then that would indicate that you're significantly other-directed and your choices and thinking are determined by others, which surely would correspond to some attachment-bonding need in your psyche? Whether it eminates from childhood or later relationships

  5. #5
    Senior Member FunnyDigestion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    If you're doing something because everyone else is doing it then that would indicate that you're significantly other-directed and your choices and thinking are determined by others, which surely would correspond to some attachment-bonding need in your psyche? Whether it eminates from childhood or later relationships
    Maybe not other-directed, maybe just not-directed... undirected, like someone without any sense of purpose. Like the quote, "If you don't stand for something you'll fall for anything"-- if you don't have a strong sense of purpose, whether selfishly or altruistically, you'll just do whatever comes in front of you, whatever people want you to do. That doesn't have much to do with the unconscious, rather the conscious part of the mind... the conscious is there to satisfy the unconscious.
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  6. #6
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    Charles Tart did some interesting work on this.

    States of consciousness, from altered states to the state earthlings call "normal waking consciousness," have been Charley Tart's specialty for two decades. Surprisingly, Dr. Tart no longer calls it "normal consciousness," and has substituted what he feels to be a more accurate term: consensus trance. To him, the idea of "normal consciousness" is the kind of convenient fiction illustrated by the famous folktale of "the emperor's new clothes." Together, human groups agree on which of their perceptions should be admitted to awareness (hence, consensus), then they train each other to see the world in that way and only in that way (hence trance).

    Experimental psychology was the vehicle Tart chose to pursue his questions about consciousness and reality. Although much of his early research involved dreaming, he was attracted to the mysterious altered state of consciousness known as hypnosis. Tart learned from his earliest experiences as a hypnotist that reality can be influenced far more strongly by one's state of mind than most people suspect, most of the time:

    "In inducing hypnosis I would sit down with a volunteer who wanted to be hypnotized," Tart recalled. "We were presumably both normal people. With our eyes we presumably saw the same room around us that others saw; with our ears we presumably heard the ordinary sounds in the room. We smelled what odors were there and felt the solidity of the real objects in the room."

    "Then I began to talk to the subject. Researchers give the style of talking the special name of 'hypnotic induction procedure,' but basically it was just talking. The subject was given no drugs, was not in a special environment, had nothing external done to his brain -- and yet in twenty minutes I could drastically change the universe he lived in. With a few words, the subject could not lift his arm. With a few more he heard voices talking when no one was there. A few more words and he could open his eyes and see something that no one else could see, or, with the right suggestion, a real object in plain sight in the room would be invisible to him."

    How can anybody distinguish, then, between dream, hypnotic trance, and reality? Dehypnotization, the procedure of breaking out of the normal human state of awareness, according to both mystics and hypnotists, is a matter of direct mental experience. The method can be learned, and that's the nutshell description of the esoteric wisdom of the ages.

    The clues from hypnosis research, experiments into the influence of beliefs upon perceptions, and teachings from the mystical traditions, led Tart to see how normal waking consciousness is the product of a true hypnotic procedure that is practiced by parents, teachers, and peers, reinforced by every social interaction, and maintained by powerful taboos. Consensus trance induction -- the process of learning the "normal waking" state of mind -- is involuntary, and occurs under conditions that give it far more power than ordinary hypnotists are ever allowed. When infants are first subjected to the processes that induce consensus trance, they are all vulnerable and dependent upon their consensus hypnotists, for their parents are the ones who initiate them into the rules of their culture, according to the instructions that had been impressed upon them by their own parents, teachers, and peers.
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  7. #7
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    The most dangerous patterns are the one's we can't see. And the patterns we can't see tend to be under our noses.

    For instance, every time we log onto Central, we are leaving individual literacy behind and entering the electronic tribe.

    There are advantages in the electronic tribe that's why we are here. And there are disadvantages in the electronic tribe, quite similar to the disadvantages in the traditional tribe.

    However we are becoming tribal because our perceptions are changing.

    And no amount of rational argument can show us how our perceptions are changing.

    Rather it is the artistic sensibility that is aware of how perceptions change.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunnyDigestion View Post
    Maybe not other-directed, maybe just not-directed... undirected, like someone without any sense of purpose. Like the quote, "If you don't stand for something you'll fall for anything"-- if you don't have a strong sense of purpose, whether selfishly or altruistically, you'll just do whatever comes in front of you, whatever people want you to do. That doesn't have much to do with the unconscious, rather the conscious part of the mind... the conscious is there to satisfy the unconscious.
    I was using other directed in the sociological sense, earlier societies and some under developed ones still perhaps could have been characterised as tradition or ideology directed, but ours is generally characterised as other directed, so you find lots of people who will do what the most popular member of their peer group does or thinks is best rather than make reference to any internalised code of behaviour or norms or seniority or authorities.

    I think that anyone who acts that way is liable to be trying to satisfy unconscious drives, ie attachment drives.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Critical Hit View Post
    Charles Tart did some interesting work on this.
    That's interesting but isnt that guy a mystic rather than a psychologist?

  10. #10
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    How does someone come to the conclusion that Nazism and Communism derive from everyone jumping on a bandwagon? I really don't see that.
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

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