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View Poll Results: Who's your GOP pick for 2012?

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  • Bachmann

    0 0%
  • Cain

    1 3.33%
  • Gingrich

    0 0%
  • Huntsman

    4 13.33%
  • Paul

    23 76.67%
  • Perry

    0 0%
  • Romney

    2 6.67%
  • Santorum

    0 0%
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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Critical Hit View Post
    Weve yet to see a situation like that. Also, lets apply some game theory to your "ticking time bomb" scenario.

    The suspect wants to cause X event to happen. If X event happens he wins. The interrogator wants to stop X from happening. X has a strict time limit on it.

    All the suspect has to do to win the game is take a knee by giving false info to keep the interrogator busy while the clock winds down. The interrogator has to waste time investigating the claims of the suspect, depending on how far off X is it could be very easy for the suspect to game the interrogator this way.

    If the event is so far off that the suspect is given the opportunity to lie multiple times then we can guess that it is not such a pressing issue that other routes of investigation cannot be taken.
    Wow.

    How surprising that you'd define all the parameters so that they align exactly how you'd want them to...

    Do you really consider this impressive reasoning?

    Quote Originally Posted by Critical Hit View Post
    Consider this, how do you tell when a suspect is lying to hide the truth that he knows or when he is just telling you what you want to hear to make it stop.

    Scenario 1: Suspect does have information but is playing dumb/feeding disinfo.
    Scenario 2: Suspect is completely innocent and has no idea what the hell is going on.

    "No please, I dont know what you are talking about! Just let me go!" (torture) "Ok, ok, Ill talk. The bomb is..." (investigation shows that there is no bomb where specified)

    ^Which scenario did I just describe?

    Its a bit like the old Freudian mindgame, "You hate your father." "But I love my father." "You see! Youre repressing your hatred for your father."

    "Im innocent!"
    "Thats exactly what a terrorist would say!"
    Yes, I already stated this was Aristotle's argument.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Wow.

    How surprising that you'd define all the parameters so that they align exactly how you'd want them to...

    Do you really consider this impressive reasoning?
    Im basing them on the parameters that you set with your "ticking time-bomb scenario"(ie 4th quarter, 37 - 16, 30 seconds left on the clock). Do you have any particular objections to them?

    Yes, I already stated this was Aristotle's argument.
    What that argument doesn't cover, however, is: 1) that perhaps there is true information that they will tell you as well; and 2) if there's a ticking time bomb scenario, you have to be able to use torture -- your ideals are meaningless.
    That was my response to your first point here. Its impossible to tell if the person has useful information. You have to keep torturing them and torturing them with the hope not just that they will tell you useful information but that they have any at all. Like a gold miner that just keeps digging deeper and deeper even though he hasnt found any Gold because he doesnt want to stop digging 5 feet from it.

    At what point do you throw your hands up in the air and say that clearly this man knows nothing?
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  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Critical Hit View Post
    Im basing them on the parameters that you set with your "ticking time-bomb scenario"(ie 4th quarter, 37 - 16, 30 seconds left on the clock). Do you have any particular objections to them?
    Yes.

    Of all possible sub-parameters that could occur under my parameter (ticking time bomb scenario), you only chose the ones that support your point. There are very obvious alternative parameters that would go to support my point. So, either you're too unintelligent to have realized that this was the case, or you did realize this was the case but you're just so ideologically motivated that you don't have enough integrity to give these alternative parameters their due weight (and thus properly mention them alongside the others).

    As I've said in other threads in which we've discussed politics: I'm not interested in discussing issues with ideologues.

    Hence, why I originally questioned whether you really found your reasoning impressive.

    I was trying to determine whether you are unintelligent, or whether you lack integrity.

    Based on your construction above, it would seem to have to be one or the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Critical Hit View Post
    That was my response to your first point here. Its impossible to tell if the person has useful information. You have to keep torturing them and torturing them with the hope not just that they will tell you useful information but that they have any at all. Like a gold miner that just keeps digging deeper and deeper even though he hasnt found any Gold because he doesnt want to stop digging 5 feet from it.

    At what point do you throw your hands up in the air and say that clearly this man knows nothing?
    You left out (whoa, what a surprise!) scenario 3: suspect does have information, and you get it out of him.

    I'm not saying there are no difficulties with torture, but your arguments are all extremely simplistic and one-sided.

  4. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I'm sure John Yoo knows a little more about this issue than you do, and he disagrees.

    / winning
    So this so called "John Yoo" is a higher power than God himself?

  5. #75
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    Considering you have no proof that God even exists, let alone that you understand his interpretation of the United States Constitution: yes, John Yoo's interpretation of the Constitution is more authoritative than your view of what God's view of the Constitution would be.

  6. #76

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    The Constitution of the United States of America is an enumeration of Natural Law. The USA is one of two countries to be founded on natural law, which is unchangeable and binding. The other is Switzerland. Natural Law is naturally inherent of the creation that God has made.

    To argue otherwise is to suggest that we throw out the constitution, because God and Natural Law are what it enumerates.

    There is no interpretation. It is fact.

    Therefore, if John Yoo disagrees, his opinion is invalid.

  7. #77
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  8. #78
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    Hmmm, okay guys, maybe you're right. Are these amenities suitable enough for our terrorists?





    If we kill them with kindness, maybe they'll talk.

  9. #79

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    When did they become terrorists?

    They were never guilty of any crime.

  10. #80
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Yes.

    Of all possible sub-parameters that could occur under my parameter (ticking time bomb scenario), you only chose the ones that support your point. There are very obvious alternate parameters that would go to support my point.
    There are a near infinity of possible sub-parameters. I happened to choose those that I felt were the most basic and best fell in line with peoples heuristic of a "ticking-time bomb". Of course anyone can scratch together a dozen convoluted situations in which all manner of otherwise immoral things are moral, but we dont leave open little ethical backdoors where if there is a _______ scenario you have to able to commit rape/murder/genocide.

    2) if there's a ticking time bomb scenario, you have to be able to use torture -- your ideals are meaningless.
    It comes down to weather such a situation could reasonably happen. You put forward a "Ticking-Time bomb" scenario. If you have any reasonable scenarios within this category in which my reasoning does not apply I would like to hear them.

    So, either you're too unintelligent to have realized that this was the case, or you did realize this was the case but you're just so ideologically motivated that you don't have enough integrity to give these alternative parameters their due weight (and thus mention them alongside the others).

    As I've said in other threads in which we've discussed politics, I'm not interested in discussing issues with ideologues.

    Hence, why I originally questioned whether you really found your reasoning impressive.

    I was trying to determine whether you are unintelligent, or whether you lack integrity.

    Based on your construction above, it would seem to have to be one or the other.
    So youve accused me of being an unintelligent ideologue that is lacking in integrity. Do you really consider this impressive debating?

    You left out (whoa, what a surprise!) scenario 3: suspect does have information, and you get it out of him.

    I'm not saying there are no difficulties with torture, but your arguments are all extremely simplistic and one-sided.
    Well duh, thats always an option. In fact its the option that you already pointed out.
    1) that perhaps there is true information that they will tell you as well;
    Do I to remind you of your own argument constantly? It was already an established point and it didnt need repeating.

    My point is that the other 2 scenarios are very likely and I would guess perhaps more likely than scenario 3. This makes torture in this situation a gamble, we have no empirical evidence on torture, only anecdotes, and that evidence(however flawed it is) seems to point towards torture being unreliable. It comes down to weather torture is more effective than military interrogation.

    None of this addresses the issue at hand either, weather torture should be an institutionalized policy. If we can leave our little platonic fantasy land and go back to reality I dont believe there is a single case of a "ticking time bomb" scenario in the torture scandal. It therefore stands that the current use of torture is unjustifiable, would you agree? Especially in light of all the non-timebomb scenarios in which it has been used.
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