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View Poll Results: Who's your GOP pick for 2012?

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30. You may not vote on this poll
  • Bachmann

    0 0%
  • Cain

    1 3.33%
  • Gingrich

    0 0%
  • Huntsman

    4 13.33%
  • Paul

    23 76.67%
  • Perry

    0 0%
  • Romney

    2 6.67%
  • Santorum

    0 0%
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Results 271 to 280 of 287

  1. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    The reason I don't Romney is that his insurance mandate model is weak and inefficient. I don't think it is a workable model for this nation's health care. I would rather see something like Vermont's system go national. RomneyCare is definitely a huge improvement from zilch, but I don't think it really does enough.
    Could you explain the difference(s)?

  2. #272
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Could you explain the difference(s)?
    Massachusetts law mandates that citizens hold health insurance and provides coverage for those near the poverty level.

    Vermont law created a program which provides health coverage.

  3. #273
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    ^ Update: Wasn't it a Xmas or Thanksgiving several years ago where Donald Trump got in a spat with another public figure and it was constantly playing out via the media? See: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1211/69792.html.

    It looks like Paul is letting his campaign people have a little fun with this one (and in American politics something as silly as this can make a difference via political theater) Not saying that this will go anywhere but then again the Donald trump and Rosie O'Donnell feud seemed much ado about nothing but nevertheless got a lot of airplay and water cooler conversation.
    LOL, this is awesome.

    UPDATE: A senior Paul campaign source emails to push back, and hard: "We agree, of course, with former Speaker Gingrich — this is a country of people of enormous talent. Those who deliver thousands of babies like Dr. Paul and those who spend their time focusing on promoting themselves for profit. We even have those who lobby, but don't call it such because, as they say, they can make $60,000 per speech. While those of us in the Paul camp might disagree with Newt Gingrich about whether Donald Trump is the right man to host a serious political debate, we do agree New York is a wonderful place to go at Christmas. We are sure two average Americans like Speaker Gingrich and Donald Trump will have a wonderful time picking out gifts for their wives. We suggest a place called Tiffany's, we her it is quite nice this time of year and given their celebrity status they can probably get special deals and $500,000 lines of credit."
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #274
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Donald Trump is a joke. It's too bad more of the republican candidates didn't decline.
    You lose.

    _______

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    Johari Window|Nohari Window

  5. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Vermont law created a program which provides health coverage.
    For everybody?

  6. #276
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    For everybody?
    I believe it is created primarily with a purpose to cover Vermonters without health coverage.

    http://www.greenmountaincare.org/ver...th-access-plan

    So, for example, an unemployed person with very low income or a single parent working part time wouldn't pay a premium, while a household of 4 with an income of 40k/yr would pay a premium of about $49/mo. The median household income in the United States is 45k/yr

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Househo...usehold_income

    It creates a highly competitive organization that dramatically lowers cost to the consumer. Alternatives involve mandating that individuals be covered, but the rates for coverage are unobtainable for a lot of people. So, these people can either be subsidized (or not, they could just die), with enormous amounts of dollars going to an obsolete, arguably unnecessary industry, or they can take a low- or no-cost option.

    Here is a table of average health premium costs in the United States

    http://www.usatoday.com/money/indust...ce-costs_N.htm

  7. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    I believe it is created primarily with a purpose to cover Vermonters without health coverage.
    Why would this not incentivize companies to drop their employees from their health insurance plan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    So, for example, an unemployed person with very low income wouldn't pay a premium, while a household of 4 with an income of 40k/yr would pay a premium of about $49/mo.
    And what about if you earn higher income than that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    It creates a highly competitive organization that dramatically lowers cost to the consumer.
    What organization is that?

    Why is it highly competitive?

    How does it dramatically lower cost to the consumer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Alternatives involve mandating that individuals be covered, but the rates for coverage are unobtainable for a lot of people. So, these people can either be subsidized (or not, they could just die)...or they can take a low- or no-cost option.
    Isn't this essentially the RomneyCare/ObamaCare model?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    ...with enormous amounts of dollars going to an obsolete, arguably unnecessary industry...
    What industry is that?

    Why is it obsolete?

    And why is it arguably unnecessary?

  8. #278
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Why would this not incentivize companies to drop their employees from their health insurance plan?
    I can't speak for anyone else, but I do know that my company health plan is nowhere near as cheap as Green Mountain Care. I would be obligated to choose them if I could, due to cost.


    And what about if you earn higher income than that?
    There are a multitude of options for a wide range of income levels. Here is a link

    http://www.greenmountaincare.org/ver...nsurance-plans


    What organization is that?
    Green Mountain Care

    http://www.greenmountaincare.org/


    Why is it highly competitive?
    The cost of a health insurance premium is significantly lower than the national average. Compare $49/mo to 1,000+/mo (national average). Understand that the cost of health insurance premiums also increases by about 5% annually (compare that to the growth in median annual income, which is negative)

    Which number is more affordable? Which option is more sustainable?


    How does it dramatically lower cost to the consumer?
    They pay less


    Isn't this essentially the RomneyCare/ObamaCare model?
    I don't see how it is. How do you see it?


    What industry is that?
    Health insurance for profit. It is no longer competitive. It is like asking why do our marines not carry battle axes into Baghdad? Does a battle ax not also kill a terrorist?


    Why is it obsolete?
    It is costly. It does not cover every resident.


    And why is it arguably unnecessary?
    It isn't unnecessary entirely. There will surely be a market for private health insurance. Consumers will likely choose the most affordable option.

    Furthermore, the state of Vermont will pay less than they were before this system was implemented. In these hard economic times, the choice is simply responsible and logical. Is it not better for the taxpayer to pay less? Or would you prefer that the state pay far more to private corporations to insure subsidized consumers at an exorbitant cost?

  9. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    I can't speak for anyone else, but I do know that my company health plan is nowhere near as cheap as Green Mountain Care. I would be obligated to choose them if I could, due to cost.
    Do you live in Vermont?

    Why the @bolded?

    Why do you not just switch to them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    The cost to the consumer is significantly lower than the national average. Compare $49/mo to 1,000+/mo (national average)
    Do these two programs provide the same level of service?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    They pay less
    Who do they pay less than?

    Who do they pay less to?

    Why/how do they pay less?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    I don't see how it is. How do you see it?
    I think you think I was talking about GreenMountainCare...?

    I was talking about the alternative you laid out: individual mandate + subsidization.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what RomneyCare and ObamaCare do, don't they?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Health insurance for profit. It is no longer competitive.
    How is it no longer competitive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    It is costly.
    What makes it costly?

    Aren't health insurance providers profit-maximizing enterprises?

    Don't they have an incentive to keep their costs as low as possible?

    Doesn't this mean they would want to pay healthcare providers as little as possible?

    Isn't the long-term average profit margin for health insurers approximately 2% of revenue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    It does not cover every resident.
    What % of citizens does it cover?

    Isn't it ~84-86%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    It isn't unnecessary entirely.
    In what ways is it necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    There will surely be a market for private health insurance.
    Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Consumers will likely choose the most affordable option.
    Which you are saying will be the public option?

    I already asked above, but why again will the public option be cheaper than private health insurance?

    How does it accomplish this? Does the level of service stay the exact same, or is effected? What happens to the doctors and hospitals who now get paid less? By getting paid less, will this make their business models less viable? I have heard that in Japan, the government uses strong price controls to manage costs in their healthcare system, and, because of this, their hospitals are constantly going bankrupt, their doctors make relatively low incomes (~$80K/yr), and their consumers consume far more healthcare services than is necessary (since the costs are below what the market would have dictated); is this what we should expect if we install this system? If not, why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Furthermore, the state of Vermont will pay less than they were before this system was implemented.
    What was the state of Vermont's healthcare system like before?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Is it not better for the taxpayer to pay less?
    I'm not sure.

    Are the services the exact same?

    Are there any long-term questions about the sustainability of the proposed system?

    They say, when it sounds to good to be true, it usually is. I don't know enough about this system: why is this not the case?

    Would the long-term quality of care decline under such a system? Would healthcare innovation potentially suffer because of it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Or would you prefer that the state pay far more to pay private industries to insure consumers at an exorbitant cost?
    Once again, I have asked this above, but why are these costs exorbitant?

    Also, why is the state paying private health insurers in the first place?

  10. #280
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Do you live in Vermont?

    Why the @bolded?

    Why do you not just switch to them?
    I do not live in Vermont. If I did, I would almost certainly have Green Mountain Care. Why the hell would I pay an obscene cost for a premium with a higher deductible?


    Do these two programs provide the same level of service?
    http://www.catamounthealth.org/vhap.html#cost_sharing

    $25 ER visit. $1 for prescription meds. Again, my existing employer's plan is laughable in comparison.

    Eyeglasses and dental care are not covered, everything else is (mental health services, doctor's office visits, hospitalization, eye exams, etc.)

    There are no other out-of-pocket expenses.


    Who do they pay less than?

    Who do they pay less to?

    Why/how do they pay less?
    These are the hardest questions I have ever been asked. I believe the consumer pays the health care provider/insurer. I believe this is what happens.

    By choosing a superior provider, you can decrease cost to the consumer and taxpayer.


    I think you think I was talking about GreenMountainCare...?

    I was talking about the alternative you laid out: individual mandate + subsidization.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what RomneyCare and ObamaCare do, don't they?
    Yes. Is it better for the United States to pay ~$1000/mo to a private insurer per household to subsidize a household, or is it better to have those households pay $49/mo to the United States? If the government can provide a vastly superior alternative, is it so wrong for a person to choose that option?


    How is it no longer competitive?
    Many people are uninsured but prefer to be insured. The cost to become insured is impossible for tens of millions of citizens. We now have a working model to lower the cost by an economic amount (economic is the new astronomic)


    What makes it costly?

    Aren't health insurance providers profit-maximizing enterprises?

    Don't they have an incentive to keep their costs as low as possible?

    Doesn't this mean they would want to pay healthcare providers as little as possible?

    Isn't the long-term average profit margin for health insurers approximately 2% of revenue?
    The fact is that they clearly are no longer able to compete. If they are still able to compete, they would have to lower the cost to the consumer. You can't market a ferrari-priced plan to the average citizen.


    What % of citizens does it cover?

    Isn't it ~84-86%?
    Yes. This leaves tens of millions of citizens with no access to health care. This is arguably a problem, because productivity is strongly correlated with good health. The nation currently spends about 16% of GDP on health care, yet we have the highest infant mortality rates and the lowest life expectancy in the developed world. The model is objectively inefficient.


    In what ways is it necessary?
    There will still be a market for private insurers. For example, a private industry might cover a cosmetic surgical procedure that GMC would not.


    Why?
    See above


    Which you are saying will be the public option?

    I already asked above, but why again will the public option be cheaper than private health insurance?

    How does it accomplish this? Does the level of service stay the exact same, or is effected? What happens to the doctors and hospitals who now get paid less? By getting paid less, will this make their business models less viable? I have heard that in Japan, the government uses strong price controls to manage costs in their healthcare system, and, because of this, their hospitals are constantly going bankrupt, their doctors make relatively low incomes (~$80K/yr), and their consumers consume far more healthcare services than is necessary (since the costs are below what the market would have dictated); is this what we should expect if we install this system? If not, why not?
    http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos074.htm#oes_links

    Earnings of physicians and surgeons are among the highest of any occupation. According to the Medical Group Management Association's Physician Compensation and Production Survey, median total compensation for physicians varied by their type of practice. In 2008, physicians practicing primary care had total median annual compensation of $186,044, and physicians practicing in medical specialties earned total median annual compensation of $339,738.

    Vermonters actually make higher income than the national median, so the cost to provide this healthcare in other states would be even lower if the doctors and other care providers are paid less. Am I wrong?


    What was the state of Vermont's healthcare system like before?
    More than 10% of the population had no access to health care. Today, the number is poised to decrease dramatically.


    I'm not sure.

    Are the services the exact same?

    Are there any long-term questions about the sustainability of the proposed system?

    They say, when it sounds to good to be true, it usually is. I don't know enough about this system: why is this not the case?

    Would the long-term quality of care decline under such a system? Would healthcare innovation potentially suffer because of it?
    The services are superior in that the cost is lower for the same care provided through a private channel. Prescription medication cost to the consumer drops by 80%, for example. Health care quality is a responsibility of care providers, not insurers. I cannot see how the quality will decrease. If you can elaborate on this, I will listen.


    Once again, I have asked this above, but why are these costs exorbitant?

    Also, why is the state paying private health insurers in the first place?
    Costs are exorbitant because the market will bear it. The market will no longer bear those costs. The consumer chooses the public option. The cost to the consumer decreases.

    I have no fucking idea who thought it would be a good idea for the state to pay private health insurers. He might be running for president. Actually, I think they both are.

    Romney VS Obama is still a possibility, though I would prefer they both vacate the candidacy immediately

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