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  1. #61
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    That's actually an assumption inherent to just about any modern political or economic ideology.
    I generally cite it for that reason, although I do think that Smith had more in common with Marx that people realise or care to admit.

    He elaborated theories which he thought where natural laws and thought the insights they provided would result in equality of condition, progress as prosperity, internationalism rather than nationalism and diminished, disappearing government.

    The difference between Marx and Smith is that most people realise that Marx's theories became an ideology in the service of elites, there's still an awful lot of people who dont accept that Smith's theories became the same, even before the time that Marx was writing at.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I generally cite it for that reason, although I do think that Smith had more in common with Marx that people realise or care to admit.
    "Untouched by the breath of God, unrestricted by human conscience, both capitalism and socialism are repulsive."
    -Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  3. #63
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    "Untouched by the breath of God, unrestricted by human conscience, both capitalism and socialism are repulsive."
    -Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
    The man done right.

  4. #64
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    That still doesn't mean you actually listened to it.

    If you'd actually listened to it, you wouldn't have written what you wrote.



    What I wrote showed how socialism best maps onto the dual-axis political spectrum.

    You started splitting hairs that aren't meant to be accounted for in the dual-axis political spectrum.

    The exact same quibbles could be made of every single ideology on there -- that's the point you didn't absorb.

    You started arguing about something I was never arguing about in the first place -- so why should I care?
    You never did tell me if anyone in that one quadrant qualifies of the title of socialist or not. If your answer had been yes, I would be critical of that. An graph like that can vaguely quantify peoples' standings but it doesn't really make someone definitively anything, does it? My point was that I could actually provide a qualitative true/false definition for someone be a socialist and on those grounds I did not believe most of these people qualified as socialists.

    Furthermore, if the axis represents socialism in the way you described socialism then I think the axis was designed with poor understanding. I'm shooting in the dark here, though, because you've been so unclear about anything you've meant to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    And you brought up some points that are so easily answered, it blows me away that you'd actually ask them.
    If it's so easy then go and answer them!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Seeing as this was the case, you're obviously coming from a position where genuine discussion is not possible.

    It doesn't interest me to talk with people who are ideologues -- from any part of the political spectrum.
    That's nice. I'm not an ideologue by any means, and I'm quite capable of genuine discussion. You're being an ass, and have certainly been the one putting less effort into a genuine discussion here, hence my consternation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    See my message to Green_Pine, above, to see that this is 100% true, not simply boasting.



    Wrong.

    Per the above.



    Read the above.

    And listen this time.
    Listen to what? You saying wrong over and over again?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #65
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green_Pine View Post
    Yeah no foreign bases no foreign wars, cut most of the military too while we are at it.

    No social security.

    Let's discuss this with a simple example.

    Jim, John, and Kim all live on the same island.

    Jim steals from Kim to give to John.

    Jim disappears.

    Does Kim owe John what Jim normally steals from her and gives to John?




    As a matter of principle, I do not see any .gov employees or ex employees that should be paid a pension. All federal pensions should be eliminated.
    That sort of militancy belongs in the realm of personal choices, such as religious precepts, rather than public life and politics, which are necessarily the arena of pragmatism.

    To be honest I think they are a little dumb and reductive, small minds, small thoughts.

    I can give you as simple a counter example, no social security, no consumers, no shops, no demand for production, no factories, no money circulating a small and smaller elite of old money gets more powerful than any kings or tyrants in history.

    I'll stop before I rock too many libertarian kiddies worlds.

  6. #66

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    Fine by me. You have the right to your own opinion, as per enumerated in Common Law part II.

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