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  1. #51

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    What to eliminate is not the question. It is, what to keep!

    Small amount of welfare $100

    Paying off debt $500

    Defense $50

    Department of State $2

    Department of Justice $15

    Treasury $5

    $20 probably some things I am forgetting.

    In billions.

    That sounds like a pretty judicious amount of money for the .gov gorilla to spend.

    Once the debt is gone, eliminate that.

    Also, we can send government organizations on a massive weight, ah erm, cost cutting journey.

  2. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blank View Post
    Where the fuck are you getting these arbitrary numbers from.
    Numbers are not arbitrary. Basic fundamental of math.

    Unless the numbers are in a literature class. Then all of a sudden, up is down and down is up, and cats are purple.

  3. #53
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green_Pine View Post
    What to eliminate is not the question. It is, what to keep!

    Small amount of welfare $100

    Paying off debt $500

    Defense $50

    Department of State $2

    Department of Justice $15

    Treasury $5

    $20 probably some things I am forgetting.

    In billions.

    That sounds like a pretty judicious amount of money for the .gov gorilla to spend.

    Once the debt is gone, eliminate that.

    Also, we can send government organizations on a massive weight, ah erm, cost cutting journey.
    The defense budget is $1.5 trillion / yr today, so you would definitely be saving a ton of money there

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militar...kdown_for_2012

    Social security (aka welfare) is an expenditure of $712 billion / yr, but it brings in much more than that ($781 billion / yr)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_...(United_States)

    Under your budget, would we continue to tax payroll but pay 1/7th of the amount we currently do in benefits for the following:

    Federal Old-Age (Retirement), Survivors, and Disability Insurance
    Unemployment benefits
    Temporary Assistance for Needy Families
    Health Insurance for Aged and Disabled (Medicare)
    Grants to States for Medical Assistance Programs (Medicaid)
    State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP)
    Supplemental Security Income (SSI)
    Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

    Keeping in mind that these tax-paying individuals (numbering in the hundreds of millions) have paid trillions upon trillions of dollars into the fund, how would you justify this?

  4. #54

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    Yeah no foreign bases no foreign wars, cut most of the military too while we are at it.

    No social security.

    Let's discuss this with a simple example.

    Jim, John, and Kim all live on the same island.

    Jim steals from Kim to give to John.

    Jim disappears.

    Does Kim owe John what Jim normally steals from her and gives to John?




    As a matter of principle, I do not see any .gov employees or ex employees that should be paid a pension. All federal pensions should be eliminated.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green_Pine View Post
    Yeah no foreign bases no foreign wars, cut most of the military too while we are at it.

    No social security.

    Let's discuss this with a simple example.

    Jim, John, and Kim all live on the same island.

    Jim steals from Kim to give to John.

    Jim disappears.

    Does Kim owe John what Jim normally steals from her and gives to John?




    As a matter of principle, I do not see any .gov employees or ex employees that should be paid a pension. All federal pensions should be eliminated.
    Pensions are not social security. And who is stealing from who? I cannot follow your analogy.

    Federal pensions cover an astounding 2.4 million Americans (There are over 150 million people in the workforce)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_...States#Federal

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green_Pine View Post
    On the subject of the "political spectrum" with single or dual axis, I propose the following as being the best method.

    Single axis. Left is Control, Right is Freedom. It matters not in reality if something is "economic" or "social", because they are the SAME thing. The "economy" is just what people do for each other in exchange for something else.
    Obviously you don't understand the purpose of the dual-axis political spectrum.

    Economic and social liberty are not the same thing.

    Not once you make the (realistic) distinction that the dual-axis spectrum makes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Green_Pine View Post
    As far as taxation goes, all taxes but excise should be abolished in the short order. As taxation is theft, I think over time we will come up with a solution for it.

    I also would promote a budget of approx. 750 billion dollars for 2012, the significant portion of which would be for paying our debt off.
    Oh, so you are a crackpot.

    Ok then, I'll ignore what you say from here on out.

  7. #57
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    <- this used to be so much better when it was the :zzz: emoticon...



    I think you didn't listen to a word I said.
    I read everything you said and formulated my response to it. Much of what you said depended on a definition of socialism which I contested, and much of what you said didn't answer my questions in my post. I don't know why you feel to see the relationship between the two posts.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  8. #58

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    Bear,

    No one pays into social security like an investment, or pays into their pension.

    They pay for the current people's pensions and social security. It's not like their money is in a bank account some where.

    So the government is taking people's money by force to distribute to someone else, on the promise that they will steal someone elses when they get old and give it to them.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I read everything you said and formulated my response to it.
    That still doesn't mean you actually listened to it.

    If you'd actually listened to it, you wouldn't have written what you wrote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Much of what you said depended on a definition of socialism which I contested...
    What I wrote showed how socialism best maps onto the dual-axis political spectrum.

    You started splitting hairs that aren't meant to be accounted for in the dual-axis political spectrum.

    The exact same quibbles could be made of every single ideology on there -- that's the point you didn't absorb.

    You started arguing about something I was never arguing about in the first place -- so why should I care?

    And you brought up some points that are so easily answered, it blows me away that you'd actually ask them.

    Seeing as this was the case, you're obviously coming from a position where genuine discussion is not possible.

    It doesn't interest me to talk with people who are ideologues -- from any part of the political spectrum.

    See my message to Green_Pine, above, to see that this is 100% true, not simply boasting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    ...and much of what you said didn't answer my questions in my post.
    Wrong.

    Per the above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I don't know why you feel to see the relationship between the two posts.
    Read the above.

    And listen this time.

  10. #60
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green_Pine View Post
    Bear,

    No one pays into social security like an investment, or pays into their pension.

    They pay for the current people's pensions and social security. It's not like their money is in a bank account some where.

    So the government is taking people's money by force to distribute to someone else, on the promise that they will steal someone elses when they get old and give it to them.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxing_and_Spending_Clause

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteen...s_Constitution

    Yes, social security is paid for with taxes

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