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  1. #31
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    So, did Marx or Smith say this:



    That's actually an assumption inherent to just about any modern political or economic ideology.

  2. #32

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    I think the question is not, how much taxes should the rich pay, but...


    Should there be an income tax?

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green_Pine View Post
    I think the question is not, how much taxes should the rich pay, but...

    Should there be an income tax?
    Frankly, I don't have a problem with the (G / (C+I+G+NX)) = ~20%.

    That's about the average since the last Great Depression, and I'd say it worked alright.

    So, assuming you're not a total crackpot, what then should be taxed?

  4. #34
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green_Pine View Post
    I think the question is not, how much taxes should the rich pay, but...


    Should there be an income tax?
    You have to have income to be taxed on income. Americans are incredibly lazy, and the median personal income is only $28,000 per year.

    http://pubdb3.census.gov/macro/03200.../new05_001.htm

    Taxing income just doesn't seem like the right thing to do. Taxing job creators would be even worse, especially in these tough economic times. Income taxes need to be lowered for those people which are actually paying (e.g. the top 1%, who pay 40% of all income taxes).

  5. #35
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    The dual-axis political spectrum is not perfect, as the two axes (economic policy and social policy) do not circumscribe all possible elements that factor into an individual's political beliefs, but it certainly is a major improvement on the more common single-axis political spectrum, and it actually does a pretty good job circumscribing most political positions when it comes to domestic politics. That being said, as I defined it, and as is a completely respectable definition to use, Socialism on the dual-axis political spectrum is the left corner of the graph, where government control of the economy is greatest, and personal liberty via social policy is the greatest as well. To be completely honest, this could be seen as being a bit kind to Socialism, as there is nothing about Socialism that necessarily states that personal liberty will be supported via social policy; Socialism is really just complete (or at least extensive) government control over the economy; I have chosen to be kind to Socialism by going with a more modern-day European Socialism (the kind that American Liberals would like to push us towards) that upholds personal liberty, while declaring the bottom corner, where both personal liberty and economic liberty are at their lowest, as Fascism/Totalitarianism/Authoritarianism/Statism; one caveat one might want to add that does not get factored into the dual-axis political spectrum is that Socialism, properly understood, entails not just extensive government control of the economy, but extensive government control of the economy for the (purported) betterment of the majority of society, not just a select oligarchy or the upper echelons of society. Other than that, though, I think my thinking about how Socialism fits into the dual-axis spectrum is really not too broad to be accurately considered anything less than meaningful.
    When is someone definitely socialist, then? The moment they have to any degree stumbled left of the origin of the graph? It would seem greatly over-simplified and largely useless to define anyone anywhere in that quadrant as a flat-out socialist through and through. Also, you've stuck to only one definition of socialism which socialists themselves often don't like to use. Your definition of socialism couldn't even include a wide range of socialist ideologies. Neither the concept of giving ownership of the means of production to workers or the concept of removing profit motive from production or service actually requires a command economy and in some cases it could be argued that those things would be undermined by a command economy.

    If I argued that we should no longer have corporations, but we should have worker cooperatives instead, I'd be a socialist without suggesting any increase in the authority of the government.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    To increasing degrees for each of these successive categories you are wrong.
    I think you are simultaneously mistaken on what socialism means and exaggerating the severity with which these people lean toward an ideology.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    When is someone definitely socialist, then? The moment they have to any degree stumbled left of the origin of the graph? It would seem greatly over-simplified and largely useless to define anyone anywhere in that quadrant as a flat-out socialist through and through. Also, you've stuck to only one definition of socialism which socialists themselves often don't like to use. Your definition of socialism couldn't even include a wide range of socialist ideologies. Neither the concept of giving ownership of the means of production to workers or the concept of removing profit motive from production or service actually requires a command economy and in some cases it could be argued that those things would be undermined by a command economy.

    If I argued that we should no longer have corporations, but we should have worker cooperatives instead, I'd be a socialist without suggesting any increase in the authority of the government.
    <- this used to be so much better when it was the :zzz: emoticon...

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I think you are simultaneously mistaken on what socialism means...
    I think you didn't listen to a word I said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    ...and exaggerating the severity with which these people lean toward an ideology.
    And you're wrong here, too.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Apparently they didn't at your school.

    The wording of the quote certainly doesn't exclude the possibility of a flat tax, and it certainly could be construed as pointing to one.
    I suppose, I understood the quote in context so it didnt appear obvious to me that it could be misinterpreted that way.


    Your experiment was poorly designed to begin with, as the quote by "Marx" seemed to be perfectly reasonable.

    It just made it unclear as to what you were trying to do, other than troll.
    Trolling is just an added perk of the experiment.

    My point was to see how the person being quoted would change the reaction to the material quoted. This is a prototype run, I want to try this out on some libertarian forums a bit later, perhaps with a better quote. Id also like to try it with some other ideologies too. Perhaps presenting some Christian Dominionist quotes as being from Islamic Scholars, maybe even some Unabomber quotes as Ann Coulter.

    This also creates a bit of cognitive dissonance when its revealed who the person is agreeing/disagreeing with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Critical Hit View Post
    I suppose, I understood the quote in context so it didnt appear obvious to me that it could be misinterpreted that way.
    I'm assuming the context of which you speak is what @Orangey posted from the same book/chapter of 'The Wealth of Nations'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Critical Hit View Post
    This also creates a bit of cognitive dissonance when its revealed who the person is agreeing/disagreeing with.
    Well, yes, based on your explanation, it would seem rather obvious that this is the point, no?

    Or is the point more just for your entertainment and showing these people to be "dumb"?

    Often times this is called trolling.

    But I suppose there is a more "serious" element in what you're doing.

    Too bad this didn't/won't work against the smarter people who still oppose your political beliefs.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Well, yes, based on your explanation, it would seem rather obvious that this is the point.

    Often times this is called trolling.
    By most definitions of the word, Socrates was a troll. The world needs more trolls.


    But I suppose there is a more "serious" element in what you're doing.
    If you really wanted to dress this up you could call it memetic warfare. This could be a powerful technique in a general campaign to make people think for themselves.
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Critical Hit View Post
    By most definitions of the word, Socrates was a troll. The world needs more trolls.
    My professor of ancient rhetoric called him a toad.

    He probably meant more-or-less the same thing.

    Aristophanes didn't have much better to say about him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Critical Hit View Post
    If you really wanted to dress this up you could call it memetic warfare. This could be a powerful technique in a general campaign to make people think for themselves.
    Yes, but that could prove so destructive to your political ideology...

    Have fun with the , though; I plan on going to some inner city schools later and pranking them with quotes by MLK about being judged by the content of their character, not the color of their skin, and how this relates to reverse discrimination via affirmative action.

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