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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    You would have to be a disgusting, sadistic, greedy idiot, devoid of the slightest respect for your fellow man to not be a communist.
    You didn't say which thinker you were quoting here...

    Let me guess:

  2. #22
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by giegs View Post
    The OP is a troll. The quote itself seems to suggest a flat tax. Is the quote from Smith? All indications point towards Marx. My rudeness is like, totally called for, dude. Especially in the context of a lack of definition of terms and the complete lack of support for the title in the body.

    Mother of fuck, do they even teach reading comprehension in schools anymore?

    @Lark God dammit, you ruined my experiment.
    +10% Crit Chance

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Critical Hit View Post
    Mother of fuck, do they even teach reading comprehension in schools anymore?
    Apparently they didn't at your school.

    The wording of the quote certainly doesn't exclude the possibility of a flat tax, and it certainly could be construed as pointing to one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Critical Hit View Post
    @LarkGod dammit, you ruined my experiment.
    Your experiment was poorly designed to begin with, as the quote by "Marx" seemed to be perfectly reasonable.

    It just made it unclear as to what you were trying to do, other than troll.

  4. #24
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    "It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  5. #25
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    "It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    That sounds like some kind of communist literature.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    "It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    So a progressive tax?

    Like the one we already have?

    In which the top 1% pay 40% of personal income taxes?

  7. #27
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    So a progressive tax?

    Like the one we already have?

    In which the top 1% pay 40% of personal income taxes?
    The top 1% own more than 40% of the wealth in this country and earn 24% of the income. This is total bullshit. If the top 1% are going to pay 40% of the taxes, they should earn 40% of the income at least. Right now, the top 1% only own 42% of the wealth in this country, and frankly I don't think this motivates the average American to strive for success. To contest this point would be communist treason and class warfare. I simply will not stand for it.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    The top 1% own more than 40% of the wealth in this country and earn 24% of the income. This is total bullshit. If the top 1% are going to pay 40% of the taxes, they should earn 40% of the income at least. Right now, the top 1% only own 42% of the wealth in this country...
    Serious question: are those numbers all accurate?

    The only one I'm (relatively) unsure of is the 24% income one -- that seems lower than I thought it was...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    ...and frankly I don't think this motivates the average American to strive for success. To contest this point would be communist treason and class warfare. I simply will not stand for it.
    Putting aside the obvious irony, when you consider state taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, and other taxes paid, on top of a 40% income tax rate, you do start getting into the 60-70% tax range where the Laffer curve shows that revenues will go down if you keep increasing the income tax rate. I did not used to be a believer in the Laffer curve (not the idea itself, but the relevance to our actual situation -- and, on a side note: I think Art Laffer himself is an idiot), as empirical studies have shown that the rate at which revenues start to decrease due to increases in the tax rate are somewhere between 60% and 70%; but then I realized that all the other taxes paid beyond federal income tax need to be factored into that as well, and, well, when you do that, the picture starts to get a little more unclear as to how much more progressive we could make the federal income tax without doing more harm than good.

    And this is not to even mention the fact that that over the last 15 years, the net creator of new jobs have been start-ups, not small businesses (which were a wash) or big business (which were a net drain), and that the vast majority of capital for these new start-ups comes from venture capitalists and angel entrepreneurs who tend to fall in this 1% (not necessarily 0.1%, 0.01%, or 0.001%, either), and that, taking away their capital via taxation does in fact pull that capital away from funding new start-ups that create those jobs.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Serious question: are those numbers all accurate?

    The only one I'm (relatively) unsure of is the 24% income one -- that seems lower than I thought it was...
    http://elsa.berkeley.edu/~saez/saez-...comes-2007.pdf

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_..._United_States

    I don't know if these sources are completely accurate, but if someone has a more accurate data set, please share it. I will assume that these numbers are correct for now.

    As you can see, it is growing year by year, but with the Obamanation the way it is, the top 1% may never actually earn the 40% of America's income that I believe they are entitled to, under the clause that they do in fact pay 40% of income tax. To give them anything less than 40% of the income is class warfare, pure and simple. Even though they are earning more and more income each year, it is too little and too late.

    How can the exorbitant wealth of this great nation ever trickle down to the general populace if the top 1% only have a tiny pool of 24% of the income with which to trickle?

    24% is less than HALF of the total income in this country. Ask yourself, why should the top 1% only earn 24% of the income in this great country?

    If you look at that PDF, figure 1 illustrates my point precisely. Notice how in the 1940s, when the Red Menace was poised to conquer the free world, the top 10% only earned 35% of the income. Today, thanks our many patriotic, capitalist heroes, the top 10% now earn well over 50% of the income in this country. This is a start, but I think we have a long way to go. In 1928, during the ROARING TWENTIES, our top 10% earned a solid 50% of the income, and everything was absolutely amazing. So, as you can see, everything is going to be alright.

    The poor just need to stop CHOOSING to be poor and become the 1%, but I cannot figure out why they won't do it.

  10. #30
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    His name sounds familiar, but I don't remember ever seeing him.

    Thanks for the link; looks like an interesting read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    [inferior Fe communist irony]
    Ok, yes, yes, that was all well and funny.

    But for the non-straw-men, who don't believe in a flat tax, and who believe our pre-Bush taxation levels are just about right, and who think we don't necessarily have a taxation problem but a spending problem (i.e., an entitlement unsustainability problem), what level of taxation on the top 1% are you condoning?

    Frankly, I think we need to think about how we differently tax the top 1% from the top 0.1% from the top 0.01% and the top 0.001%.

    Of course, the people at the very top get most of their income through dividends and capital gains, so the federal income tax level is largely irrelevant for them. On a related note, this is a large part of the problem with Warren Buffet's complaint about his low tax level, as the truth is, the shares that he is getting his dividends and capital gains from are already having their income taxed around 35%, so he actually is paying far more tax on his income than is his secretary. The smart thing to do would be to slash the corporate tax rate to zero, and then have a progressive income tax on dividends and capital gains, so that: 1) billionaires who make all their money this way are paying the same rate on that income that they'd pay if it were normal income; 2) there's no rational complaint that that income is being double-taxed due to the corporate income tax; and 3) corporations will want to keep their operations (and thus jobs) here due to our competitive tax policy (which is now the first or second most burdensome in the developed world).

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