User Tag List

12 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 11

  1. #1
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,630

    Default Authoritarianism, authority and just plain assholery

    I've got to say that there's nothing that fills me quicker with a secret fury than authoritarianism, I really cant stand it at all, I think that it totally discredits most legitimate authority.

    Its, a hell of a lot of the time, partnered up with inconsistency in the exercise of authority per se, so you'll get wild variance between softly, softly approaches and sudden death to the letter adherence, sometimes there'll be some other trigger or factor involved, like something is going to make someone more or less liable to be a target because of prejudice or a grudge but that doesnt even have to be the case.

    What I hate too about most people who turn out authoritarian or who have authoritarian streaks which surface given the right moment is that if you spend much time with them they are actually full of feelings of inferiority, at least it appears so because of the ways in which they pursue credentials, status or engage in competitions, not to be the best but to avoid being the worst.

    That's not the only conflict I've witnessed either, there's the willingness, even joy, with which someone will seize an opportunity to exercise authority, the closer to a real "naked power" variety the better for them, but then afterwards swing in the opposite direction.

    The examples which bother me the most are more social, public and political but parenting is actually an easier theatre to find examples of it, like the parent who seems to be having a great time disciplining their child, where it verges on simply beating their child up, and then afterwards for whatever reason swings in lets go to the cinema, get ice cream, have a treat mode. WTF. Its less then about any sort of need the child might have for discipline until they can display some self-discipline and more about some kind of weird ass sub-dom relationship.

    What bugs me is that this sort of crap, this sort of high conflicted personality, well, these people enter into the professions, win public office, exercise some real power and just with the appointment or advent of their administration the fact they are a bit of an asshole doesnt go away. There is then the additional problem that when they externalise their thoughts or feelings others can mistake it for fairly legit concerns about authority or managing conflict or think "hey, that sounds a lot like that I think is at stake".

    Then when this sort of personality meets with its mirror opposite, the real oppositional defiant douche bag or someone who'll imagine any rule enforcement is definitely a personal vendetta, no matter how slight, and they enter into a perfect sort of toxic co-dependency its just the greatest marriage made in hell sort of thing.

    Without presuming too much I'd say this is probably something there's liable to be a consensus about, although I wondered if anyone has any examples or just how much aggrivation it causes? Anyone who has stories about exposing this shit or managing it would be even better than rants like me but I dont know if anyone will have any stories like that.

  2. #2
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    E9
    Posts
    912

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I've got to say that there's nothing that fills me quicker with a secret fury than authoritarianism, I really cant stand it at all, I think that it totally discredits most legitimate authority.

    Its, a hell of a lot of the time, partnered up with inconsistency in the exercise of authority per se, so you'll get wild variance between softly, softly approaches and sudden death to the letter adherence, sometimes there'll be some other trigger or factor involved, like something is going to make someone more or less liable to be a target because of prejudice or a grudge but that doesnt even have to be the case.

    What I hate too about most people who turn out authoritarian or who have authoritarian streaks which surface given the right moment is that if you spend much time with them they are actually full of feelings of inferiority, at least it appears so because of the ways in which they pursue credentials, status or engage in competitions, not to be the best but to avoid being the worst.

    That's not the only conflict I've witnessed either, there's the willingness, even joy, with which someone will seize an opportunity to exercise authority, the closer to a real "naked power" variety the better for them, but then afterwards swing in the opposite direction.

    The examples which bother me the most are more social, public and political but parenting is actually an easier theatre to find examples of it, like the parent who seems to be having a great time disciplining their child, where it verges on simply beating their child up, and then afterwards for whatever reason swings in lets go to the cinema, get ice cream, have a treat mode. WTF. Its less then about any sort of need the child might have for discipline until they can display some self-discipline and more about some kind of weird ass sub-dom relationship.

    What bugs me is that this sort of crap, this sort of high conflicted personality, well, these people enter into the professions, win public office, exercise some real power and just with the appointment or advent of their administration the fact they are a bit of an asshole doesnt go away. There is then the additional problem that when they externalise their thoughts or feelings others can mistake it for fairly legit concerns about authority or managing conflict or think "hey, that sounds a lot like that I think is at stake".

    Then when this sort of personality meets with its mirror opposite, the real oppositional defiant douche bag or someone who'll imagine any rule enforcement is definitely a personal vendetta, no matter how slight, and they enter into a perfect sort of toxic co-dependency its just the greatest marriage made in hell sort of thing.

    Without presuming too much I'd say this is probably something there's liable to be a consensus about, although I wondered if anyone has any examples or just how much aggrivation it causes? Anyone who has stories about exposing this shit or managing it would be even better than rants like me but I dont know if anyone will have any stories like that.
    I had a boss like this once. <shudder> <curls up into fetal position>

    The only solution is sucking up building a relationship with them, and being super careful to build them up and never make them feel inferior.

    Or leave the company and get them out of your life.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,630

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    I had a boss like this once. <shudder> <curls up into fetal position>

    The only solution is sucking up building a relationship with them, and being super careful to build them up and never make them feel inferior.

    Or leave the company and get them out of your life.
    I've had bosses like that before now, suspect a very similar experience to your own, what with the shudder etc. but I'm lucky at the minute that my present bosses are great, reasonable and, more importantly, reasonably happy people, I find that if you're a reasonably happy person, not neurotic, anxious, moody or anything, then you're less inclined, much less inclined to be this way.

    I had a friend who was a senior sales person in the states, probably still is, a bit of an uber mensch, he got laid off in one job and it was something like within the month that he got something else, remarried after a messy divorce and got custody of his kids settled all within a year and he would attribute this, in his own commonsensical way, to a sort of wolf pack hierarchy, alpha, beta characters. He said he actively tried to avoid any situation in which he found someone who was a beta in an alpha position. How could you tell? He said alphas never sweated or stressed about their role, betas where constantly looking for props, competing with subordinates, jealous even of their subordinates. I dont know if American workplaces are different to here but following his example someone else told a story about how they never revealed any extra-workplace interests like golf, poker, sports just in case it EVER resulted in a matching of or contest of skill with a superior.

    The thing that I think is nuts though is that besides the nuts and bolts of everyday politics, avoiding wars, maintaining public order, striving for public safety and avoiding your currency collapsing while the economic gets managed this whole thing, this whole issue, to me is THE political issue or what every society should be concerning itself with.

    Its not even on the radar.

  4. #4
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    E9
    Posts
    912

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I've had bosses like that before now, suspect a very similar experience to your own, what with the shudder etc. but I'm lucky at the minute that my present bosses are great, reasonable and, more importantly, reasonably happy people, I find that if you're a reasonably happy person, not neurotic, anxious, moody or anything, then you're less inclined, much less inclined to be this way.

    I had a friend who was a senior sales person in the states, probably still is, a bit of an uber mensch, he got laid off in one job and it was something like within the month that he got something else, remarried after a messy divorce and got custody of his kids settled all within a year and he would attribute this, in his own commonsensical way, to a sort of wolf pack hierarchy, alpha, beta characters. He said he actively tried to avoid any situation in which he found someone who was a beta in an alpha position. How could you tell? He said alphas never sweated or stressed about their role, betas where constantly looking for props, competing with subordinates, jealous even of their subordinates. I dont know if American workplaces are different to here but following his example someone else told a story about how they never revealed any extra-workplace interests like golf, poker, sports just in case it EVER resulted in a matching of or contest of skill with a superior.

    The thing that I think is nuts though is that besides the nuts and bolts of everyday politics, avoiding wars, maintaining public order, striving for public safety and avoiding your currency collapsing while the economic gets managed this whole thing, this whole issue, to me is THE political issue or what every society should be concerning itself with.

    Its not even on the radar.
    It drives me fn crazy that in order to be professional, you have to pretend that this shit doesn't exist.

    I'm pretty sure there is more of it on the west coast US than anywhere else on the continent, or in Britain or Australia, judging by the places I've lived and the people I've worked with.

    I think smart large companies and management consultants are aware of this, and they do what they can to avoid letting it happen, but the problem is that those people tend to be good at hiding those behaviors from those who have the power to do anything about it. It's one of the reasons I much prefer working with people who are really smart. It seems to be less common in places with a lot of smart people, for a number of reasons I can think of.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,630

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    It drives me fn crazy that in order to be professional, you have to pretend that this shit doesn't exist.

    I'm pretty sure there is more of it on the west coast US than anywhere else on the continent, or in Britain or Australia, judging by the places I've lived and the people I've worked with.

    I think smart large companies and management consultants are aware of this, and they do what they can to avoid letting it happen, but the problem is that those people tend to be good at hiding those behaviors from those who have the power to do anything about it. It's one of the reasons I much prefer working with people who are really smart. It seems to be less common in places with a lot of smart people, for a number of reasons I can think of.
    Its part of the reason I hate a lot of the dated as all hell debates about communism vs. capitalism vs. liberalism vs. conservatism, its all window dressing because the whole world is just shades of managerial societies approximating some sort of neo-feudalism. People have niches and fifedoms and act the king shit.

    Watching some of the shows like The Apprentice just makes me think that there's a hell of a lot of people who think that success and good management actually amounts to being able to act that way. Which is shit. They're content to cover for those that do in the belief that eventually they'll ascend and have a coronation of their own.

    Its no surprise that the people in the US, perhaps the world, who've taken the greatest interest in the Peter Principle, ie that people rise to their level of incompetence, so they could be great a range of things but ascend to the point where they cant go further and cant do a good job where they find themselves but block others and ruin subordinates lives, have been the US Army, Navy and Airforce.

  6. #6
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/sp
    Posts
    1,793

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I had a friend who was a senior sales person in the states, probably still is, a bit of an uber mensch, he got laid off in one job and it was something like within the month that he got something else, remarried after a messy divorce and got custody of his kids settled all within a year and he would attribute this, in his own commonsensical way, to a sort of wolf pack hierarchy, alpha, beta characters. He said he actively tried to avoid any situation in which he found someone who was a beta in an alpha position. How could you tell? He said alphas never sweated or stressed about their role, betas where constantly looking for props, competing with subordinates, jealous even of their subordinates. I dont know if American workplaces are different to here but following his example someone else told a story about how they never revealed any extra-workplace interests like golf, poker, sports just in case it EVER resulted in a matching of or contest of skill with a superior.
    I think there's some truth to this, but I don't distinguish it as "alpha" or "beta". I distinguish it to being the way different personality types act. An istp can be competitive and unsure, an estj can be sure. An istp can still be in a management position. Some personalities can be "yes" people, and others can be questioning, assertive, and defensive. I think distinguishing a person's personality by "alpha" and "beta" is a bit silly, and incorrect. Sounds like someone is on an ego trip. Not surprising that he is in sales. I could see some sales-oriented situations being run like this, but I've never seen a corporation being run like this, where you "aren't allowed" to match skills with a superior. Sounds honestly, like an estp thang. All of this sortof reeks to me like "confessions of an estp" lol......
    ISTP 6w5 sx/sp
    6-8-4/6-9-4 Tritype

  7. #7
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,630

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    I think there's some truth to this, but I don't distinguish it as "alpha" or "beta". I distinguish it to being the way different personality types act. An istp can be competitive and unsure, an estj can be sure. An istp can still be in a management position. Some personalities can be "yes" people, and others can be questioning, assertive, and defensive. I think distinguishing a person's personality by "alpha" and "beta" is a bit silly, and incorrect. Sounds like someone is on an ego trip. Not surprising that he is in sales. I could see some sales-oriented situations being run like this, but I've never seen a corporation being run like this, where you "aren't allowed" to match skills with a superior. Sounds honestly, like an estp thang. All of this sortof reeks to me like "confessions of an estp" lol......
    Wolf pack theorising doesnt appeal to me either, its funny I'd not have thought of him as sp, he's from Texas. I just always thought there was a strong J quadrant there.

  8. #8
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/sp
    Posts
    1,793

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Wolf pack theorising doesnt appeal to me either, its funny I'd not have thought of him as sp, he's from Texas. I just always thought there was a strong J quadrant there.
    Could be possible. I could see an estj doing this too. Or an esfj..... I just think estp's wrote the book on this stuff. (I'm not saying all estp's do this).
    Definitely NOT an entj lol.....
    ISTP 6w5 sx/sp
    6-8-4/6-9-4 Tritype

  9. #9

    Default

    You know, there are two things that can tick off this ENTJ and get his steam blowing.

    People who think they own you (authoritative).

    People that don't care if they hurt (encroach) on other people (careless).

    Could this be an ENTJ thing?

    I know many ENTJs who think similarly.

  10. #10
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    SLI None
    Posts
    9,635

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I've got to say that there's nothing that fills me quicker with a secret fury than authoritarianism, I really cant stand it at all, I think that it totally discredits most legitimate authority.

    Its, a hell of a lot of the time, partnered up with inconsistency in the exercise of authority per se, so you'll get wild variance between softly, softly approaches and sudden death to the letter adherence, sometimes there'll be some other trigger or factor involved, like something is going to make someone more or less liable to be a target because of prejudice or a grudge but that doesnt even have to be the case.

    What I hate too about most people who turn out authoritarian or who have authoritarian streaks which surface given the right moment is that if you spend much time with them they are actually full of feelings of inferiority, at least it appears so because of the ways in which they pursue credentials, status or engage in competitions, not to be the best but to avoid being the worst.

    That's not the only conflict I've witnessed either, there's the willingness, even joy, with which someone will seize an opportunity to exercise authority, the closer to a real "naked power" variety the better for them, but then afterwards swing in the opposite direction.

    The examples which bother me the most are more social, public and political but parenting is actually an easier theatre to find examples of it, like the parent who seems to be having a great time disciplining their child, where it verges on simply beating their child up, and then afterwards for whatever reason swings in lets go to the cinema, get ice cream, have a treat mode. WTF. Its less then about any sort of need the child might have for discipline until they can display some self-discipline and more about some kind of weird ass sub-dom relationship.

    What bugs me is that this sort of crap, this sort of high conflicted personality, well, these people enter into the professions, win public office, exercise some real power and just with the appointment or advent of their administration the fact they are a bit of an asshole doesnt go away. There is then the additional problem that when they externalise their thoughts or feelings others can mistake it for fairly legit concerns about authority or managing conflict or think "hey, that sounds a lot like that I think is at stake".

    Then when this sort of personality meets with its mirror opposite, the real oppositional defiant douche bag or someone who'll imagine any rule enforcement is definitely a personal vendetta, no matter how slight, and they enter into a perfect sort of toxic co-dependency its just the greatest marriage made in hell sort of thing.

    Without presuming too much I'd say this is probably something there's liable to be a consensus about, although I wondered if anyone has any examples or just how much aggrivation it causes? Anyone who has stories about exposing this shit or managing it would be even better than rants like me but I dont know if anyone will have any stories like that.
    I see, I initially thought you to be an authoritarian/left kinda guy (left and up) but it appears you are libertarian left (left and down)
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
    ENFP
    5w4>1w9>2w1 Sx/Sp
    SEE-Fi
    Papa Bear
    Motivation: Dark Worker
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Chibi Seme
    MTG Color: black/red
    Male Archtype: King/Lover
    Sunburst!
    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire

Similar Threads

  1. O si yo, hello, hola, bonjour, hihanji waste and just plain howdy.
    By Ene in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 08-20-2012, 07:38 AM
  2. News and Communication Style [split from NTs: Just Plain Rude?]
    By Erudur in forum Arts & Entertainment
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 05-22-2009, 10:43 PM
  3. [NT] NTs, just plain rude?
    By juggernaut in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 134
    Last Post: 05-21-2009, 11:21 AM
  4. New here and just want to finally figure out my type.
    By LeetoLydia in forum What's my Type?
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 08-19-2008, 09:29 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO