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  1. #31
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    No, we have to look out for each other. This is why we have prohibition. If a person decides they want to harm themselves, we have to have some kind of oversight, otherwise we would be guilty of negligence. If a person makes a choice, we as a society, can determine that the choice is terrible and encourage (by force, if necessary) them to change their choice.
    lol. yeah.


    How can it ever be harmful to become a woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I would agree that there was a high likelihood of the being underlying issues at stake. Although to hear many it wasnt they that had the problem it was "society".

    Anyway, I think I've answered the second part of your post before. In broadly simplar topics or even in this thread, its implicit in what I've said already what my opinion is. I dont think that there is any "society" determining what is acceptable, in fact I dont think there has been such a phenomenon for a long, long time, and yet there's people willing to raise a hue and cry that entropy needs to be shifted into a higher gear for the good of all.

    I'm beginning to think of trying to discover where the life rafts are rather than trying to save this fast sinking ship.
    Oh. I took from this quote of yours:

    adopting an "its all good", try everything, dont leave any potentiality unexperienced and dont judge but to me that could be compounding some peoples troubles,
    sort of a sociological vibe...instead of a "live and let live" vibe...
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  2. #32
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post

    How can it ever be harmful to become a woman?
    I can explain why.

    I am a man. I have a penis, and I choose to identify as a man. It would be senseless for me to become a woman. It may not be harmful, but it is certainly the wrong decision, given that I identify as a man. Were I to become a woman, I would no longer enjoy urination. There are important implications for changing one's sex. Decades ago, one would have had to consider even more circumstances, like no longer being able to vote, for example. Now, generally when a person opts for gender reassignment, they have a good reason. A medical consultant will typically determine whether the decision is helpful or harmful for that individual.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That's an isolated issue to work, and the adults should be in a position to avoid situations like that. Plus the culture has been changing.
    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    Yes, I understand this. I try to keep up with what is going on in terms of education. I am not always successful, but I try. I think many of them do not, and that's what causes the divide. In their time, transsexual meant freak-of-nature. Today, we know alot more about it, yet they still tend to hold on to old beliefs. In other words, I seem to accept and integrate new information and try to change my world view, while they, do not. I think it could be that particular generation.... This doesn't mean I agree with new world views in-terms-of what is cool or popular, but I do try to integrate new knowledge. This is where they seem to fail.
    I think the cultural shift is something worth considering... Cisgendered people can be wrong or even clueless about trans* (is that how you say it, asterisk and all?) people without being necessarily intolerant; we've been using the gender binary as a yardstick for several societal conventions for a long time - bathroom stalls, prisons, etc. It's a complicated issue. The best course of action for me has been to keep an open mind and to avoid making assumptions (although, frankly, I've never met, AFAIK, a trans* person in real life). The pronoun thing is a good example of how cis people like me can be clueless without being malicious: if I hadn't read about the subject, I'd probably refer to MtF people as "he" without noticing it (but now I know, and knowing is half the battle! ).

    Also, not every rejection of gender stereotyping or embracing of less traditionally [male/female] traits or interests points to being trans*. Some of us just roll our eyes at the pink and blue girl/boy toy options at Happy Meal ads.

    That said, comment sections are where decency, civility, tolerance, humility and uppercase letters go to die.
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  4. #34
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont think its besides the point and I dont think anyone is "obsessing" about any "slippery slope".
    Lol. Please note the entire LACK OF CONTENT in your response to explain why this is not the case. ("I don't think <this> and I don't think <that>" and nothing else being offered to add something tangible to the discussion.)

    Your typical modus operandi in any thread like this is to pull out your copy-and-paste of how any sort of change in the social status is basically adding entropy/disorder to the system and why this is a Bad Thing and we should be afraid of it. It's literally the same general, broad point made over and over. I mean, look at what you posted recently, after your retort:

    I dont think that there is any "society" determining what is acceptable, in fact I dont think there has been such a phenomenon for a long, long time, and yet there's people willing to raise a hue and cry that entropy needs to be shifted into a higher gear for the good of all.

    I'm beginning to think of trying to discover where the life rafts are rather than trying to save this fast sinking ship.
    If that is not alarmist in nature, I don't really know what is.

    If this is meant to be relevant and is not simply one more example of how you focus on the "bottom of the slippery slope" while ignoring all the ground in-between, why don't you actually discuss -- with specifics -- the topic of this thread? Why do you think in particular allowing a transgirl to join Girl Scouts is, instead of a complex social issue with pitfalls and positives to consider, solely something that will contribute to the confusion of society?

    Let's get some meat on the bones. I want to hear how you reached your broad conclusion.

    EDIT: skimming the rest of the thread, i found this in a response to someone else:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    When I was studying at the university in Derry there there two or three locals one of whom was a post-op male to female transexual, no history of being middle sexed or anything like that, and I wasnt sure about the others.

    The post-op male to female was pretty famous locally for "eccentricity" but I only ever seen them to be totally miserable, they where a darling of one or two lecturers at a local university who professed the most intellectual theories of spectrums of gender as opposed to gender poles of male and female. To be honest I'd question now and privately, but never publically, did back then, how ethical this whole thing was.

    Anyway, she fell out with a group of girls who where on the course with me, two of whom were your archetypically diminutive, small, unthreatening females and she nearly bust their door with a fire extinguisher complaining about noise when they had no music or TV on.

    The same transsex woman, with her friends, had an argument with another group of women of the course in a local club which escalated to violence, the women on my course were not types I would have messed with on a good day to be honest and they knocked transex woman down (despite being shorter than her) before the bouncers intervened.

    That's all direct experience, although I know a lot about the current levels of pre and post op services required for most of the limited and few cases of this in NI and its often a complex picture further complicated with issues of addiction, attachment problems, other forms of emotional distress and illness and long debates about whether transexuality or gender confusion is a root cause or simply another symptomatic issue of an underlying problem.
    Ah, yes, that's better.... although we're still not focused on the transkid and the Girl Scouts.

    (Still, I wonder why I have to poke and prod you and still never get this kind of detail out of you -- I just typically get a kneejerk response. Why didn't you just actually offer this up front? You knew I was asking for stuff like this...)

    Thank you for sharing your experience. I would be skeptical of someone in that situation as well.

    I would simply encourage you to move beyond this person who seems rather messed up and consider the case literature as well as get a better cross-section of the actual outcomes for this condition. In my experience, your story is not indicative. The reason the APA and AMA have both approved a medical solution to GID in screened cases is because it's actually been resulting in far healthier patients nowadays long-term than other remedies. However, the patients must be properly screened by psychiatrists and doctors who understand the clinical aspects of the condition.

    I actually know a lot of normal, healthy, functioning transpeople in society. However, I also know a few whack jobs who snuck through the system and should have never been approved for any sort of medical solution.

    There are people who from the dizzy heights of philosophy or politics argue for a post modern or pomo perspective on this which rubbishes even concepts like transexuality, often submerging it with other debates about homosexuality, bisexuality etc. too and adopting an "its all good", try everything, dont leave any potentiality unexperienced and dont judge but to me that could be compounding some peoples troubles, maybe not but I can imagine how it could.
    Well, I know I don't think it's "all good." Everything has to be taken on its own terms. I also don't even advocate a medical solution to one's gender issues unless there has been proper long-term screening of the patient to rule out other conditions that might be contributing to the identity issues.

    I do appreciate you sharing your anecdote, and I guess a personal experience like that holds a lot of weight to you, since you don't really seem to discuss the clinical aspects of the condition -- you just seem to be against it because you thought this woman and a few others were nutjobs, and that's enough to convince you. *shrug*
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  5. #35
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    I think the cultural shift is something worth considering... Cisgendered people can be wrong or even clueless about trans* (is that how you say it, asterisk and all?) people without being necessarily intolerant; we've been using the gender binary as a yardstick for several societal conventions for a long time - bathroom stalls, prisons, etc. It's a complicated issue. The best course of action for me has been to keep an open mind and to avoid making assumptions (although, frankly, I've never met, AFAIK, a trans* person in real life). The pronoun thing is a good example of how cis people like me can be clueless without being malicious: if I hadn't read about the subject, I'd probably refer to MtF people as "he" without noticing it (but now I know, and knowing is half the battle! ).
    To expound further on comments I made to Jag and what you've said here, I think there is a concern about the peer dynamics in situations where a transkid is living in the identified gender. The thing I find interesting is that, while maybe back in the 60-80's, peer response in "average society" would have been pretty negative toward transkids and result in exclusion and perhaps physical harm; nowadays, it's very much mixed. There are kids who will still resort to bullying behavior (because those kind of power dynamics will always be present to some degree, especially in an age when kids are looking to bolster their esteem), while other young kids will stand up for their friends and fully accept them; it's like they know just by interacting with their peer the reality of who and what they are.

    Kids also key off adult response, so if the dominant adults in the kids' lives are positive, they will be far more apt to accept things, and if the adults are insulting or demeaning or not really accepting, the peers will also pick up those vibes. There is far more adult acceptance nowadays of things outside what used to be the norm, therefore the kids respond to that. Gen Y and younger kids also have this kind of "diversity rules all" mentality, and they take things in stride; if you treat someone like crap, they will rip you apart for it, but if you're a decent person, they seem willing to accept a lot of variation, whether in appearance, sexuality, gender expression, or whatever else.

    I don't really know about the trans* thing, it's as good a shorthand as anything else, I guess.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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