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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    Yes, I understand this. I try to keep up with what is going on in terms of education. I am not always successful, but I try. I think many of them do not, and that's what causes the divide. In their time, transsexual meant freak-of-nature. Today, we know alot more about it, yet they still tend to hold on to old beliefs.
    Yeah, I would question what is education and what is fashion, there's many vogues which are then subsequently refuted, whether you believe a current phase is valid or voquish can often be reduced to a matter of perspective.

    I am very unsure when transsexuals where considered freaks of nature, are you talking about people who are middle sexed or people whose gender is indeterminate at birth as a consequence of birth defects or what? Because that would not cover the entire topic of transexuality, for those who fit that category or even those who are just on some sort of bod modification and identity quest, there are others who are unhappy, psychologically troubled individuals who believe they've found their grail in transexuality only to be disappointed.

    However, that's complex, its not reducing things to black/white, good/evil, good guys/bad guys which is popular and fits with kind of emoting which definitely IS in vogue in a lot of cultural/political thinking presently.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think there are more options than "nothing goes" or "everything goes."

    Discussions like this are about deciphering what changes make sense and are necessary. I don't see the point in consistently obsessing about the bottom end of the slippery slope, it avoids responsibility for using discernment to come to a best course of action in a sometimes ambiguous world.

    Yes, entropy is a fundamental aspect of the universe. It's rather beside the point.
    I dont think its besides the point and I dont think anyone is "obsessing" about any "slippery slope".

  3. #23
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yeah, I would question what is education and what is fashion, there's many vogues which are then subsequently refuted, whether you believe a current phase is valid or voquish can often be reduced to a matter of perspective.
    Yes, I realize this, but in this case, I am talking about information that is generally known to science and to the people at large. They refuse to integrate it into their belief systems, so they are continuing to use old information and perspectives that people now find sometimes, horrible and abusive, even lol..... There is a point where you draw the line.

    Although there is something to be said for "vogueish".... margerine screwed people, for instance, so I get what you are saying, and why they could be squeamish. Why sometimes popular belief, and usually actually, is incorrect, but I think you have to extrude some truths from it. It can't be totally ignored. I think there's something to be said for their perspective as well, although I think most have many issues to work out, involving updating themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I am very unsure when transsexuals where considered freaks of nature, are you talking about people who are middle sexed or people whose gender is indeterminate at birth as a consequence of birth defects or what? Because that would not cover the entire topic of transexuality, for those who fit that category or even those who are just on some sort of bod modification and identity quest, there are others who are unhappy, psychologically troubled individuals who believe they've found their grail in transexuality only to be disappointed.
    I'm speaking of common-belief. In their gen, it seems that anyone who wasn't on the straight-and-narrow was an oddity and a freak.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    However, that's complex, its not reducing things to black/white, good/evil, good guys/bad guys which is popular and fits with kind of emoting which definitely IS in vogue in a lot of cultural/political thinking presently.
    This is what they did. They reduced it to "weirdos" and "normals", because they didn't have any information. We're talking about very simple people, and simple beliefs. There wasn't a whole lot of information in the 30's-50's, when they grew up.
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  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    Yes, I realize this, but in this case, I am talking about information that is generally known to science and to the people at large. They refuse to integrate it into their belief systems, so they are continuing to use old information and perspectives that people now find sometimes, horrible and abusive, even lol..... There is a point where you draw the line.
    I'll be clear that I'm not denying that there are some oppressions concealed with traditional practices, products of earlier conditions, not necessarily ignorance although sometimes labelled as such but steming from a different culture and its underpinnings.

    On the other hand in haste to remove or reform those oppressions often some horrendous things are done, I dont simply means lynch mobs, summary justice, show trials or terrors either. There are good reasons why people say that the road to hell is paved with good intentions or that cure is worse than the disease or any number of dozens of other aphorisms and truisms.

    Often people dont integrate to them what doesnt make sense to do so, sometimes they are the very people who turn out to be correct when a voguish notion has passed or been abandoned as mistaken. So what are sometimes considered discoveries are really rediscoveries or people finding out for the first time what others have yet to forget.

    I'm speaking of common-belief. In their gen, it seems that anyone who wasn't on the straight-and-narrow was an oddity and a freak.
    Well, I suppose I'd need clarification as to what either "straight and narrow" or "oddity and a freak" would mean before I could comment on that.

    This is what they did. They reduced it to "weirdos" and "normals", because they didn't have any information. We're talking about very simple people, and simple beliefs. There wasn't a whole lot of information in the 30's-50's, when they grew up.
    I wouldnt be so condescending about others beliefs or earlier beliefs, why choose that era, the 30s and 50s even as conspiciously erronious? Anyway, it can be and frequently is, the conceit of any age to believe its more learned or wise than others, often it finds out different to its own expense. There was plenty of information back then, there always is plenty of information but its often filtered differently. Whether that filtering is considered wisened or erronious can be a matter of debate or perspective.

  5. #25
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post

    On the other hand in haste to remove or reform those oppressions often some horrendous things are done, I dont simply means lynch mobs, summary justice, show trials or terrors either. There are good reasons why people say that the road to hell is paved with good intentions or that cure is worse than the disease or any number of dozens of other aphorisms and truisms.

    Often people dont integrate to them what doesnt make sense to do so, sometimes they are the very people who turn out to be correct when a voguish notion has passed or been abandoned as mistaken. So what are sometimes considered discoveries are really rediscoveries or people finding out for the first time what others have yet to forget.

    Well, I suppose I'd need clarification as to what either "straight and narrow" or "oddity and a freak" would mean before I could comment on that.

    I wouldnt be so condescending about others beliefs or earlier beliefs, why choose that era, the 30s and 50s even as conspiciously erronious? Anyway, it can be and frequently is, the conceit of any age to believe its more learned or wise than others, often it finds out different to its own expense.
    Oh, in this case, it's been proven. My mother is virtually useless in most scenarios.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    There was plenty of information back then, there always is plenty of information but its often filtered differently. Whether that filtering is considered wisened or erronious can be a matter of debate or perspective.
    Yes,... I'm sure there was information. According to the people I've listened to, it was difficult to get TO that information, therefore, to them, there was none. It wasn't an option in their eyes, and I think it was somewhat their disinterest. And these people, like many, went with popular belief. I'm talking about American southern and midwestern culture. At the same time, I think the information they had was insane, many times lol...... and that's what I meant by a "lack of information". If they are holding on to popular or even educated beliefs from the 50's, many times, yea, they appear ignorant. There was a lack of information compared to today.

    Many people didn't see education as an option in their generation. And that goes back to: them not believing they should try to keep up and integrate new information into their belief systems.

    Although I see that their side is valid as well, I can't say that I am a big advocator of such. I am trying to be tolerant, but I have also suffered at the hands of these belief systems, so I'm finding it difficult, and more difficult than usual. When abuse is involved, it's easy to close-the-door, period. This is one area where I have flip-flopped more often, and failed to ever reach a resolve, other than simply closing the door. That seems to work more than anything else.
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  6. #26
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yeah, I would question what is education and what is fashion, there's many vogues which are then subsequently refuted, whether you believe a current phase is valid or voquish can often be reduced to a matter of perspective.

    I am very unsure when transsexuals where considered freaks of nature, are you talking about people who are middle sexed or people whose gender is indeterminate at birth as a consequence of birth defects or what? Because that would not cover the entire topic of transexuality, for those who fit that category or even those who are just on some sort of bod modification and identity quest, there are others who are unhappy, psychologically troubled individuals who believe they've found their grail in transexuality only to be disappointed.

    However, that's complex, its not reducing things to black/white, good/evil, good guys/bad guys which is popular and fits with kind of emoting which definitely IS in vogue in a lot of cultural/political thinking presently.
    Hi Lark. Can you elaborate on the bolded? Do you know this to be true? Don't you work in the mental health field?
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  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Hi Lark. Can you elaborate on the bolded? Do you know this to be true? Don't you work in the mental health field?
    When I was studying at the university in Derry there there two or three locals one of whom was a post-op male to female transexual, no history of being middle sexed or anything like that, and I wasnt sure about the others.

    The post-op male to female was pretty famous locally for "eccentricity" but I only ever seen them to be totally miserable, they where a darling of one or two lecturers at a local university who professed the most intellectual theories of spectrums of gender as opposed to gender poles of male and female. To be honest I'd question now and privately, but never publically, did back then, how ethical this whole thing was.

    Anyway, she fell out with a group of girls who where on the course with me, two of whom were your archetypically diminutive, small, unthreatening females and she nearly bust their door with a fire extinguisher complaining about noise when they had no music or TV on.

    The same transsex woman, with her friends, had an argument with another group of women of the course in a local club which escalated to violence, the women on my course were not types I would have messed with on a good day to be honest and they knocked transex woman down (despite being shorter than her) before the bouncers intervened.

    That's all direct experience, although I know a lot about the current levels of pre and post op services required for most of the limited and few cases of this in NI and its often a complex picture further complicated with issues of addiction, attachment problems, other forms of emotional distress and illness and long debates about whether transexuality or gender confusion is a root cause or simply another symptomatic issue of an underlying problem.

    There are people who from the dizzy heights of philosophy or politics argue for a post modern or pomo perspective on this which rubbishes even concepts like transexuality, often submerging it with other debates about homosexuality, bisexuality etc. too and adopting an "its all good", try everything, dont leave any potentiality unexperienced and dont judge but to me that could be compounding some peoples troubles, maybe not but I can imagine how it could.

  8. #28
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    When I was studying at the university in Derry there there two or three locals one of whom was a post-op male to female transexual, no history of being middle sexed or anything like that, and I wasnt sure about the others.

    The post-op male to female was pretty famous locally for "eccentricity" but I only ever seen them to be totally miserable, they where a darling of one or two lecturers at a local university who professed the most intellectual theories of spectrums of gender as opposed to gender poles of male and female. To be honest I'd question now and privately, but never publically, did back then, how ethical this whole thing was.

    Anyway, she fell out with a group of girls who where on the course with me, two of whom were your archetypically diminutive, small, unthreatening females and she nearly bust their door with a fire extinguisher complaining about noise when they had no music or TV on.

    The same transsex woman, with her friends, had an argument with another group of women of the course in a local club which escalated to violence, the women on my course were not types I would have messed with on a good day to be honest and they knocked transex woman down (despite being shorter than her) before the bouncers intervened.

    That's all direct experience, although I know a lot about the current levels of pre and post op services required for most of the limited and few cases of this in NI and its often a complex picture further complicated with issues of addiction, attachment problems, other forms of emotional distress and illness and long debates about whether transexuality or gender confusion is a root cause or simply another symptomatic issue of an underlying problem.

    There are people who from the dizzy heights of philosophy or politics argue for a post modern or pomo perspective on this which rubbishes even concepts like transexuality, often submerging it with other debates about homosexuality, bisexuality etc. too and adopting an "its all good", try everything, dont leave any potentiality unexperienced and dont judge but to me that could be compounding some peoples troubles, maybe not but I can imagine how it could.
    So, it doesn't sound like the trans woman in your example was necessarily miserable from the srs....at least I did not glean that from what you stated, but maybe had some other issues going on...?

    Should we as a society decide what is 'acceptable' for some to choose? If srs only potentially hurts the one doing it, who is society to say it's wrong, or to question its validity? Although the underlying causes of feeling tg might be many and varied, and worth looking more into and understanding so that tg folks can definitely make the right choice for them.
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  9. #29
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Should we as a society decide what is 'acceptable' for some to choose? If srs only potentially hurts the one doing it, who is society to say it's wrong, or to question its validity? Although the underlying causes of feeling tg might be many and varied, and worth looking more into and understanding so that tg folks can definitely make the right choice for them.
    No, we have to look out for each other. This is why we have prohibition. If a person decides they want to harm themselves, we have to have some kind of oversight, otherwise we would be guilty of negligence. If a person makes a choice, we as a society, can determine that the choice is terrible and encourage (by force, if necessary) them to change their choice.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    So, it doesn't sound like the trans woman in your example was necessarily miserable from the srs....at least I did not glean that from what you stated, but maybe had some other issues going on...?

    Should we as a society decide what is 'acceptable' for some to choose? If srs only potentially hurts the one doing it, who is society to say it's wrong, or to question its validity? Although the underlying causes of feeling tg might be many and varied, and worth looking more into and understanding so that tg folks can definitely make the right choice for them.
    I would agree that there was a high likelihood of the being underlying issues at stake. Although to hear many it wasnt they that had the problem it was "society".

    Anyway, I think I've answered the second part of your post before. In broadly simplar topics or even in this thread, its implicit in what I've said already what my opinion is. I dont think that there is any "society" determining what is acceptable, in fact I dont think there has been such a phenomenon for a long, long time, and yet there's people willing to raise a hue and cry that entropy needs to be shifted into a higher gear for the good of all.

    I'm beginning to think of trying to discover where the life rafts are rather than trying to save this fast sinking ship.

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