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  1. #261
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Munchies View Post
    Ron Paul is focused on "voluntarism" or whatever. He leaves out the factor of greed. BIG MISTAKE.
    there is good greed (a simple concept many don't seem to grasp)
    good greed: being motivated to make lots of money by being productive, resourceful, efficient, adaptable and setting up win/win scenarios
    bad greed: stealing, placing the safety of others secondary to making money, manipulating people for money, coercing people for money
    Libertarianism does not support bad greed (as defined here). most Libertarians would support legislation preventing stealing, coercion, endangering the lives of others and fraudulent activity.
    if someone wants to sit on a pile of $50,000,000 that they earned from producing quality products and services that benefited people, WHO CARES? that's their choice. desire and morality do not need to be opposed to one another. why not embrace a philosophy in which they work together, people get maximum freedom and those who who steal, disregard other's rights, coerce and fraud are punished?
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  2. #262
    Senior Member Munchies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    there is good greed (a simple concept many don't seem to grasp)
    good greed: being motivated to make lots of money by being productive, resourceful, efficient, adaptable and setting up win/win scenarios
    bad greed: stealing, placing the safety of others secondary to making money, manipulating people for money, coercing people for money
    Libertarianism does not support bad greed (as defined here). most Libertarians would support legislation preventing stealing, coercion, endangering the lives of others and fraudulent activity.
    if someone wants to sit on a pile of $50,000,000 that they earned from producing quality products and services that benefited people, WHO CARES? that's their choice. desire and morality do not need to be opposed to one another. why not embrace a philosophy in which they work together, people get maximum freedom and those who who steal, disregard other's rights, coerce and fraud are punished?
    Yes but leaving the good of the world in the hands of charity is a joke. Also leaving someone on the road to die because of no healthcare is a joke. I lean more in the direction of government regulated by the people controlling real charity methods. Everything in this country is a joke, especially most chairty cases when you get to the root of it.
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  3. #263
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Munchies View Post
    Yes but leaving the good of the world in the hands of charity is a joke.
    Why is government any better? Leaving ANY of the world's problems to one group or institution is a joke. There are very few things at which government is a more effective, less blunt instrument than voluntary coordination (be it charity-driven or profit-driven).

    Also leaving someone on the road to die because of no healthcare is a joke.
    When does this happen? NO ONE in the United States is denied emergency care for lack of insurance.


    I lean more in the direction of government regulated by the people controlling real charity methods.
    What constitutes a "real" charity method? What is your definition of charity? And how do you account for the reality that forced charity (that is what government is: legal monopoly of force) really isn't "charity" at all anymore?


    Everything in this country is a joke, especially most chairty cases when you get to the root of it.
    What does this even mean? Are you suggesting that charity doesn't work? Or that the level of charitable giving is woefully inadequate? You have to elaborate here.
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  4. #264
    Senior Member Munchies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Why is government any better? Leaving ANY of the world's problems to one group or institution is a joke. There are very few things at which government is a more effective, less blunt instrument than voluntary coordination (be it charity-driven or profit-driven).

    You're right, leaving it to a monopoli is deffinitly a joke and democracy is broken. But i think that we should jsut have smaller governments closer to home, not nessesarily NO government. The further government from the regional level to federal level obviously the more there is a different conflict of interests. Charity as it is now, is a joke. Manipulates people to feel sd and to give to a reactionary cause that does nothing but bandaid the problem. Charity should be structured, and instead of sending food everywhere all the time, build a mthrfking food factoring in that area or somthing. Since absolute power curropts absolutley, ideas will be governed by forums and not one sided heated black and white political debate disconnected from the people. This democray can work, we just need to connect the people to the government. Voting is useless, most people are mindless zombies spewing out other peoples truths

    When does this happen? NO ONE in the United States is denied emergency care for lack of insurance.

    I think healthcare should be a right, especially in a country which providdes aid to everybody else. all im saying

    What constitutes a "real" charity method? What is your definition of charity? And how do you account for the reality that forced charity (that is what government is: legal monopoly of force) really isn't "charity" at all anymore?




    What does this even mean? Are you suggesting that charity doesn't work? Or that the level of charitable giving is woefully inadequate? You have to elaborate here.
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  5. #265
    Senior Member Munchies's Avatar
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    but the system as it is now is completly borken and my oppinion is really flexible right now since thi paradgm of events is really like a movie scene
    1+1=3 OMFG

  6. #266
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Socialism...

    Because there's more to life than being some old money rich guys bitch.

    Because for too long its been the rich that gets the pleasure, the poor get all the blame.

    Because markets didnt prevent widespread economic fraud, mis-selling, recession, inequality, poverty and corporate crime.

    Because markets dont have a solution to the same.

    Because when one dollar one vote determines policy, priorites and the economy your vote isnt going to count at all.

    Because power corrupts and money equals power.

    Because there arent any really great privatisation success stories.

    Because the choice between authoritarian statesmen and capitalist oligarchs is no choice at all.

    Because the welfare state has done more good than harm when it has been used and not abused.

    Because class struggles are still what determines everything else.

    Because something has to make good on the promises, hopes and dreams classical economists had now that its clear capitalism cant and those ideas are still appealing.

    Because markets, money and the economy were meant to be at our service and not our masters.

    Because there's still some things sacred and unsaleable.

  7. #267
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    I think Ron Paul scares me because he actually believes what he says and doesn't see any other way that things could be. Not to bag on libretarians, but I've noticed they tend to lag in social development compared to their peers so they have this "fuck you you wouldn't help me when I was down so I'll leave you to the wol es now." Attitude that I do not agree with.

  8. #268
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    there is good greed (a simple concept many don't seem to grasp)
    good greed: being motivated to make lots of money by being productive, resourceful, efficient, adaptable and setting up win/win scenarios
    bad greed: stealing, placing the safety of others secondary to making money, manipulating people for money, coercing people for money
    Libertarianism does not support bad greed (as defined here). most Libertarians would support legislation preventing stealing, coercion, endangering the lives of others and fraudulent activity.
    if someone wants to sit on a pile of $50,000,000 that they earned from producing quality products and services that benefited people, WHO CARES? that's their choice. desire and morality do not need to be opposed to one another. why not embrace a philosophy in which they work together, people get maximum freedom and those who who steal, disregard other's rights, coerce and fraud are punished?
    Good greed versus bad greed? What you define as "good greed" is really just someone pursing their own self-interest in a morally acceptable way. The "bad greed" is pursing your self-interest in an immoral way.

    Here's the problem I have with a lot of right-wingers today: Our nation's economic philosophy finds its roots in Adam Smith's work, the invisible hand and all of that. But what many people don't know or ignore is that Adam Smith believed the invisible hand only worked when society was comprised of moral individuals. In his time most economic transactions were performed face-to-face and societies had real communities, so there was less of a need for regulation. But today, with so many economic transactions performed virtually anonymously and there being almost no social consequences for bad (but not illegal) behavior, it's just not working. Bad behavior runs rampant. That's where regulation comes in, or at least it's supposed to. And that leads to a huge problem I have with right-wing rhetoric today. Deregulate, deregulate, deregulate. How are we supposed to limit bad behavior if we don't have regulations prohibiting it?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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