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  1. #251
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    BTW, it's a really douche-y and ineffectual way to criticize someone for "not knowing how the world works" when he positing a new way of organizing industry and ADMITTING that he isn't quite sure how it would work yet.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  2. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I think I'll be voicing the thoughts of many forum users here with this question, but are you the biggest dipshit in the world? I got some impression that you were a full grown man, but this kind of crap, which you've written many times, is embarrassingly immature.
    And I'll be voicing my thoughts and the thoughts of many forums users here when I say that your opinion is really meaningless.

    Your desires are never going to become a reality, as your ideas are not based in reality.

  3. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    It's too vague. I can't be sure that it specifically implies what would actually be socialist in its effect, i,e, workers collectively make the decision for the course of the company. I will tell you something I don't know; I don't know how much of Goldman Sachs is owned by employees. Is it over 50% owned by employees? Equally amongst employees or unevenly?
    Depends on whether you're counting only current or former as well, I believe.

    Certainly not evenly, though.

    Regardless, the point is: your position is absurd.

    In fact, it seems to be so absurd you can't even figure out how it would actually work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Why don't you operationalize the bold phrase?
    I have no idea what you mean to say by "operationalize".

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    BTW, it's a really douche-y and ineffectual way to criticize someone for "not knowing how the world works" when he positing a new way of organizing industry and ADMITTING that he isn't quite sure how it would work yet.
    Not really.

    If you're gunna be talking about massively overhauling the economy, you should at least know how it currently works.

    Furthermore, if you're gunna argue, as teh Sponge (implicitly or explicitly) has many times with me, about how we should strive for some Socialist paradise, you should have a very good idea of how it would work before you start thinking we should strive for it, not after. At the very least, if you're still figuring it out, you shouldn't argue with others that it should be the goal. Not until you've figured out how it actually makes sense and could realistically happen. Otherwise, you're just wasting everybody's time and energy on bullshit.

  4. #254
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I follow your thinking here. It would really depend on the organization of the entities and to whom they were offering their wares/services. If this were to be a non-communist society (that is, the workers would run their business, but still be selling the products to other markets, as opposed to using them all for themselves), then free trade might not necessarily be lessened.
    I have not encountered anyone really big on ideas like market socialism, economic democracy, cooperativism, etc... who asserted that cooperatives must only use their products for themselves. The popular notion is that these cooperatives can indeed sell their products/services to anyone they well please. For those particularly long-term and optimistic theorists, they envision a world where worker cooperatives dominate and as such every cooperative would likely be doing business with other cooperatives, but that's still pretty standard market stuff, because there would be many cooperatives and one would be free to do business with any of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Economic freedom would be, in that private ownership of capital would be gone.
    Well, no one person would own capital because the means of production is evenly shared by all employees. You still do have competing cooperatives, though. The workers of Cooperative A have no say in the production of Cooperative B. So it's not all a big public mass, at least. Furthermore, a consumer's roles would hardly change at all. Competing cooperatives would be offering you goods and services and you choose which you want to pay for such.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    As to labor, I think that would decrease labor mobility, since you'd lose your ownership stake in the organization if you left its workforce, correct? I doubt people would leave positions nearly as frequently if they lost both "income" (money or output, from their labor input) and ownership if they left a job. Decision making power, also.
    Yeah, but then you're picking up a share wherever you go. It seems to me that the added loss has a directly equivalent added gain.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    You say this now, but I think of the labor union wars of the early-1900s.
    I was going to make some commentary about the differences between a union and a non-unionized worker cooperative, but I think you should elaborate more about those union wars before I know if my commentary is relevant.


    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    And how they achieve it. And what happens to the old capitalists. And the inevitable governmental response. There are so many questions.
    Well, getting back to the root, the question is really just "what does it take for employees to really control a business?"
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #255
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Depends on whether you're counting only current or former as well, I believe.

    Certainly not evenly, though.
    A more explicit answer is desired.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Regardless, the point is: your position is absurd.

    In fact, it seems to be so absurd you can't even figure out how it would actually work.
    More invective filler. Blah blah blah blah.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I have no idea what you mean to say by "operationalize".
    Seriously?

    "In humanities, operationalization is the process of defining a fuzzy concept so as to make the concept clearly distinguishable or measurable and to understand it in terms of empirical observations. In a wider sense it refers to the process of specifying the extension of a concept — describing what is and is not a part of that concept.

    Operationalization often means creating operational definitions and theoretical definitions."



    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    If you're gunna be talking about massively overhauling the economy, you should at least know how it currently works.
    You're way too eager to assume what other people don't know. As it trite as it may be, I must remind you that your concept of knowledge seems to be based around agreeing with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Furthermore, if you're gunna argue, as teh Sponge (implicitly or explicitly) has many times with me, about how we should strive for some Socialist paradise
    I do no such thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    you should have a very good idea of how it would work before you start thinking we should strive for it, not after. At the very least, if you're still figuring it out, you shouldn't argue with others that it should be the goal. Not until you've figured out how it actually makes sense and could realistically happen. Otherwise, you're just wasting everybody's time and energy on bullshit.
    I don't think anyone on earth has ever done that. It would require a level of knowledge nobody has possessed. We approach things with partial knowledge. I feel pretty confident in how some things should work, they form a point from which I can explore how others might work, which may eventually lead to a new point of confidence.

    It should be fairly obvious that you don't need perfect information to make value judgments or have an aim, otherwise no one would ever make a value judgment or have an aim.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  6. #256
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    If the workers own the means of production it's socialist. You can provide another definition which I can't technically call illegitimate, I suppose. I'm just using a very old and still rather well known definition.
    No it's not. And an employee-owned corporation is also not necessarily the same as a cooperative (not directed at you, just a general statement). There's a difference between an employee and a citizen. Bad (unproductive) employees can be kicked out (fired). Citizens cannot.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #257
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    No it's not. And an employee-owned corporation is also not necessarily the same as a cooperative (not directed at you, just a general statement). There's a difference between an employee and a citizen.
    Every worker gets a share. Own the means of production. Those are among the most classically socialist concepts out there.

    But to make this a little less fuzzy, since the implication of an employee merely owning a corporation was never quite clear (since I could take that to mean an employee just happening to be a major investor in the company for which he/she works), let's make it at least a little more specific.

    "A worker cooperative is a cooperative owned and democratically managed by its worker-owners. This control may be exercised in a number of ways. A cooperative enterprise may mean a firm where every worker-owner participates in decision making in a democratic fashion, or it may refer to one in which managers and administration is elected by every worker-owner, and finally it can refer to a situation in which managers are considered, and treated as, workers of the firm. In traditional forms of worker cooperative, all shares are held by the workforce with no outside or consumer owners, and each member has one voting share. In practice, control by worker-owners may be exercised through individual, collective or majority ownership by the workforce, or the retention of individual, collective or majority voting rights (exercised on a one-member one-vote basis).[1] A worker cooperative, therefore, has the characteristic that the majority of its workforce own shares, and the majority of shares are owned by the workforce."
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    A more explicit answer is desired...

    It should be fairly obvious that you don't need perfect information to make value judgments or have an aim, otherwise no one would ever make a value judgment or have an aim.
    *remembers why discussing anything with the Sponge is pointless*

    *goes back to doing what he would've been doing*

  9. #259
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I have not encountered anyone really big on ideas like market socialism, economic democracy, cooperativism, etc... who asserted that cooperatives must only use their products for themselves. The popular notion is that these cooperatives can indeed sell their products/services to anyone they well please. For those particularly long-term and optimistic theorists, they envision a world where worker cooperatives dominate and as such every cooperative would likely be doing business with other cooperatives, but that's still pretty standard market stuff, because there would be many cooperatives and one would be free to do business with any of them.
    So the system would remain largely the same, just with the workers owning everything? How would ownership transfer, if at all? Would current employment be a prerequisite? Equal voting rights for all? And what would the state do in this case?


    Well, no one person would own capital because the means of production is evenly shared by all employees. You still do have competing cooperatives, though. The workers of Cooperative A have no say in the production of Cooperative B. So it's not all a big public mass, at least. Furthermore, a consumer's roles would hardly change at all. Competing cooperatives would be offering you goods and services and you choose which you want to pay for such.
    OK, so it is basically the same as now. A worker-owned/directed take on fairly free-market capitalistic processes.


    Yeah, but then you're picking up a share wherever you go. It seems to me that the added loss has a directly equivalent added gain.
    Not if you retire. Or if longevity has anything to do with the shares.


    I was going to make some commentary about the differences between a union and a non-unionized worker cooperative, but I think you should elaborate more about those union wars before I know if my commentary is relevant.
    Oh, I meant how different unions vied for dominance in different trades, and there was bitter rivalry between trade unions and industrial unions over the nature of unionism in general. And then you had people like Wobblies who wanted One Big Union of the working class.


    Well, getting back to the root, the question is really just "what does it take for employees to really control a business?"
    More than just a controlling or majority interest in shares, I am sure. It's interesting to think about, though.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  10. #260
    Senior Member Munchies's Avatar
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    Ron Paul is focused on "voluntarism" or whatever. He leaves out the factor of greed. BIG MISTAKE.
    1+1=3 OMFG

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