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  1. #221
    Knobgoblin mooseantlers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Finland is not a socialist nation. They actually have a dynamic capitalist economy.
    You can have that with socialism. Democratic socialism, that is. Canada is a socialist nation (Though not so much any more since the Harper regime got elected to a cough cough 39% cough majority?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Finland is not a socialist nation.
    Could you explain how this is the case?

  3. #223
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mooseantlers View Post
    You can have that with socialism. Democratic socialism, that is. Canada is a socialist nation (Though not so much any more since the Harper regime got elected to a cough cough 39% cough majority?)
    No, it most certainly is not. In fact, Canada ranks higher in economic freedom than does the United States, and it has for several years.

    http://www.freetheworld.com/2011/rep...2011_chap1.pdf


    High taxes/spending and single-payer healthcare do not, in and of themselves, make a country socialist.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Could you explain how this is the case?
    Because, as I ALWAYS point out, a large welfare state does not automatically equal socialism. Finland has some very large, intensely competitive corporations.

    I wish this could be stickied:


    "socialism - an economic and political theory advocating public or common ownership and cooperative management of the means of production and allocation of resources"

    Most so-called "socialist" countries in Europe do not follow this model in the majority of these industries. And, if you look at the table I posted above, Finland and Bahrain are tied at 11-12, directly behind the U.S. Real socialist countries are in the lower 1/3rd of the list, and they are all desperately poor or moving in that direction.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    High taxes/spending and single-payer healthcare do not, in and of themselves, make a country socialist.
    Ok, well, I hope you realize that you are working off a certain definition of socialism, then, that is not what is commonly used.

    Furthermore, I don't think your usage of the term is any more correct than other peoples'.

    In fact, I think the common usage is actually more correct than your own.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Because, as I ALWAYS point out, a large welfare state does not automatically equal socialism. Finland has some very large, intensely competitive corporations.

    I wish this could be stickied:

    "socialism - an economic and political theory advocating public or common ownership and cooperative management of the means of production and allocation of resources"
    See that part about "allocation of resources"?

    That's the high taxes/spending and large welfare state.

    Hell, even high government spending as a % of GDP is essentially "public/common ownership and cooperative management of the means of production".

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Most so-called "socialist" countries in Europe do not follow this model in the majority of these industries. And, if you look at the table I posted above, Finland and Bahrain are tied at 11-12, directly behind the U.S. Real socialist countries are in the lower 1/3rd of the list, and they are all desperately poor or moving in that direction.
    What it looks like is that you're using a selective understanding of socialism that basically means most everything is nationalized.

    It also looks like you're doing so in order to be able to back into those countries that are "actually" socialist as those at the bottom.

    I would say that it's more of a spectrum: how much is your economy guided by the free market, and how much is controlled by the government. Based on such an understanding, looking at government spending as a % of GDP, as well as the extent of reallocation of resources via welfare systems, are perfectly understandable, and, in my opinion, better, ways of talking about the amount of capitalism vs socialism inherent in an economy.

    This is the typical way of looking at things, imo, and is how most economists and economic textbooks look at the issue.

    Using this methodology, the US is properly looked at as a mixed economy, as are most other developed nations.

    It also means that, Finland, with G/GDP of ~55%, and Canada, at ~50%, are more socialist than the US (~25%).

    *if you include state & local government spending, the US is at just under 40%; not sure about Finland and Canada.

    **it is highly likely that US state & local spending as a % of GDP is significantly higher than that of Finland and Canada.

  6. #226
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Because, as I ALWAYS point out, a large welfare state does not automatically equal socialism. Finland has some very large, intensely competitive corporations.

    I wish this could be stickied:


    "socialism - an economic and political theory advocating public or common ownership and cooperative management of the means of production and allocation of resources"

    Most so-called "socialist" countries in Europe do not follow this model in the majority of these industries. And, if you look at the table I posted above, Finland and Bahrain are tied at 11-12, directly behind the U.S. Real socialist countries are in the lower 1/3rd of the list, and they are all desperately poor or moving in that direction.
    Replace every corporation with a worker cooperative and you'd have a pretty robust market that would still be socialist. I don't believe there's presently any society operating like that, however.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  7. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Replace every corporation with a worker cooperative and you'd have a pretty robust market that would still be socialist. I don't believe there's presently any society operating like that, however.
    So, in other words, keep the corporation, but just *give* the employees all of the stock of the company.


  8. #228
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    So, in other words, keep the corporation, but just *give* the employees all of the stock of the company.

    I wasn't actually saying how you'd convert the economy from one to the other. I just meant to say that a cooperative based economy would qualify.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I wasn't actually saying how you'd convert the economy from one to the other. I just meant to say that a cooperative based economy would qualify.
    And I was just taking a shot at your pie-in-the-sky desires.

    Well, that's not all I was doing...

    I have been curious as to how exactly you think that should happen.

    See, cuz, from how I see it, ownership of a company by employees is not socialist -- not in the least.

    It's the government coming in, taking the current shareholders' shares from them, and redistributing them to the employees that makes it socialist. Its also what makes it criminal, as well as absurd.

    An employee-owned corporation is just an employee-owned corporation. If it's working on a free market, in order to make profit (for the owners, who, in this case, are also the employees), then it's a capitalist enterprise.

  10. #230
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Ok, well, I hope you realize that you are working off a certain definition of socialism, then, that is not what is commonly used.
    The text definition? Yeah, I think will keep doing that.


    Furthermore, I don't think your usage of the term is any more correct than other peoples'.
    I think words have meanings, and this is one instance in which "common usage" is incorrect.


    In fact, I think the common usage is actually more correct than your own.
    "(My) own" is a dictionary definition. Pardon me if I trust that over "common usage."


    See that part about "allocation of resources"?
    That's the high taxes/spending part, sure.


    Hell, even high government spending as a % of GDP is essentially "public/common ownership and cooperative management of the means of production".
    No, it really is not.



    What it looks like is that you're using a selective understanding of socialism that basically means most everything is nationalized.

    It also looks like you're doing so in order to be able to back into those countries that are "actually" socialist as those at the bottom.

    I would say that it's more of a spectrum: how much is your economy guided by the free market, and how much is controlled by the government. Based on such an understanding, looking at government spending as a % of GDP, as well as the extent of reallocation of resources via welfare systems, are perfectly understandable, and, in my opinion, better, ways of talking about the amount of capitalism vs socialism inherent in an economy.

    This is the typical way of looking at things, imo, and is how most economists and economic textbooks look at the issue.
    No, it is not. Not at all. You're completely wrong. You're not going to win this one.


    Using this methodology, the US is properly looked at as a mixed economy, as are most other developed nations.

    It also means that, Finland, with G/GDP of ~55%, and Canada, at ~50%, are more socialist than the US (~25%).

    *if you include state & local government spending, the US is at just under 40%; not sure about Finland and Canada.

    **it is highly likely that US state & local spending as a % of GDP is significantly higher than that of Finland and Canada.
    This is a good point.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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