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  1. #211
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    @Speed Gavroche
    homosexuality was widely accepted and practiced in both ancient Greece and feudal Japan, where same sex love was sometimes considered the "purest" form of love
    I didn't talk about homosexuality overall but about gay marriage specifically. And the simple fact that very gay friendly societies like Greece and feudal Japan didn't marry homosexuals shows that marriage has nothing to do with gays and is not something which rise spontaneously and without the intervention of the state at all. Gay marriage is just a form of interventionism and a whim from modern days liberals, and nothing more.
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  2. #212
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    By your definition, a man and a woman cannot be married without (eventually) having children.
    No. I said, that straight marriages would be necessary as long as wome have children. Sterile couples don't invalid the existence of that necessity or the validity of straight marriage.

    What you are talking about could be called, say, natural family. But that is not the topic.
    Yes, it's natural family, and since straight marriage rised as a mean to guarantee the perenity of theses natural families, then straight marriage is natural.


    If there are reasons for straight couples to have particular rights as parties of a partnership, then there are reasons for gay couples to have equal rights.
    I never said that there was reason for straight couples to have particular rights. So your "argument" is completely invalid.


    I care about equal rights for all couples.
    I care about equal right for everybody, I don't see why we should favor thoses who are in couple more than thoses who are singles.

    But I do not give a damn what they call the legal concepts that provide these rights.
    So, why do you complain so much when we don't want to call gay couples "married".


    One thing is realistically possible, the other not so much. The 'contradiction' happens when ideals become pragmatic.
    Actually, the true idealist are you and PM since that, assuming that the statist straight marriage is one step toward the wrong direction you want to make a second step toward that wrong direction to serve the completely vain ideal of "equality" while the truly pragmatic position at this point is to not make that second step and prefer the status quo.
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    "I don't believe in guilt, I only believe in living on impulses"

    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  3. #213
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Sterile couples don't invalid the existence of that necessity or the validity of straight marriage.
    Right; but it would imply that sterile couples can or should not be married.

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Yes, it's natural family, and since straight marriage rised as a mean to guarantee the perenity of theses natural families, then straight marriage is natural.
    If it - straight marriage, that is - is 'natural family', then why are you talking about marriage at all? When people talk about marriage here, they mean something that can be dissolved through the legal act of divorce.

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    I never said that there was reason for straight couples to have particular rights. So your "argument" is completely invalid.
    My argument remains entirely valid. Do you know what 'if' means?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    I care about equal right for everybody, I don't see why we should favor thoses who are in couple more than thoses who are singles.
    I agree. They should not be favored, but they should have the right, for instance, to visit their partner in the hospital when only family members are allowed to have access, to be part of the usual line of inheritance, to share a surname; in other words: they should be able to enjoy the mutual comforts that being in a marriage normally provide. Paying less taxes is not something I find necessary. Receiving money for having children is probably a better incentive to help populate the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    So, why do you complain so much when we don't want to call gay couples "married".
    I never have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Actually, the true idealist are you and PM since that, assuming that the statist straight marriage is one step toward the wrong direction you want to make a second step toward that wrong direction to serve the completely vain ideal of "equality" while the truly pragmatic position at this point is to not make that second step and prefer the status quo.
    I think a different pragmatic solution is better than the pragmatic status quo because it makes more people happy. I would also not say that the legal concept of marriage is a step in the wrong direction; it is simply not ideal, as people are not ideal.

  4. #214
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    But it does stand on its own, hetero marriage appeared sponteneously before it was regulated by the state. While gay marriage on an other hand, never appeared spontaneously and is just an artificial statist construct.
    Then you must surely support removing the government ban on polygamy since THAT is the real "natural" state.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #215
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Then you must surely support removing the government ban on polygamy since THAT is the real "natural" state.
    ^^I think government shouldn't forbid polygamy for sure.
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    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  6. #216
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    ^^I think government shouldn't forbid polygamy for sure.
    And polyandry? Or do you want to limit the choice of having multiple partners to men, only?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #217
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    And polyandry? Or do you want to limit the choice of having multiple partners to men, only?
    Not polyandry either.
    EsTP 6w7 Sx/Sp

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    "I don't believe in guilt, I only believe in living on impulses"

    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  8. #218
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    SG is arguing that I am still supporting a gay marriage position. I would argue that, failing government getting out of the marriage business, it would be fairer to open state marriage up to homosexuals. I really think that marriage should not be a governmental issue, though. If Catholics or evangelicals or Muslims or conservative/Orthodox Jews don't want to perform or recognize gay marriages, they shouldn't have to do so. The government, on the other hand, has a responsibility not to discriminate unless there is a compelling state interest to do so. They simply do not have one in this instance.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #219
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Not polyandry either.
    So then you'd be okay with this big web of people being married to each other, as long as girls only marry boys and boys only marry girls?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    SG is arguing that I am still supporting a gay marriage position. I would argue that, failing government getting out of the marriage business, it would be fairer to open state marriage up to homosexuals. I really think that marriage should not be a governmental issue, though. If Catholics or evangelicals or Muslims or conservative/Orthodox Jews don't want to perform or recognize gay marriages, they shouldn't have to do so. The government, on the other hand, has a responsibility not to discriminate unless there is a compelling state interest to do so. They simply do not have one in this instance.
    You and I have similar positions on the matter, but mine is slightly different (and, frankly, I have adapted my position due to the statement of your position you put out earlier). I'm gunna delineate the difference. Just posting this to force myself to do so.

    [post pending]

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