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  1. #31
    Senior Member Lily flower's Avatar
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    In a lot of countries, being in the military for several years is mandatory. I'm really glad I live in a volunteer military country.

  2. #32
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Since you've come up with them without seemingly having thought them through, why don't you make a comparison list of pro's and con's and likely responses and failure points (good/bad) for each of those possibilities. Don't forget to factor in the increasing bias (rather than random sample) of allowing the pool to partially select itself and external pressures able to influence who agrees to be part of a jury pool vs doesn't, and the opportunities for extortion.
    The jury pool is already biased toward certain groups, and against others. People in technical occupations are generally dismissed, which deprives juries of those most inclined to evaluate evidence rationally and objectively -- and least susceptible to emotional arguments from either legal side. I would actually like to serve on a jury, but would have to reinvent my occupation as "program manager" to do so, as a former supervisor once did.

    It is not surprising that so many people try to weasel out of jury duty. Just look at how few vote, and that usually takes less than an hour. If so many people with poor/no excuses didn't try to worm their way out of it, the courts probably wouldn't be so exacting of those with good excuses, and the effective jury pool would be much larger. If the government really wants to encourage jury participation, it should require employers to treat jury duty as paid absence, at least for the first week, and give them a tax break for it. An occasional stint on a jury should be as commonplace and accepted as missing a few days with the flu, or taking a vacation. As others have pointed out, the alternative is far less satisfactory.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #33
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lily flower View Post
    In a lot of countries, being in the military for several years is mandatory. I'm really glad I live in a volunteer military country.
    Having an "all-volunteer force" is one of the greatest justifications for (and enablers of) involvement in ill-conceived conflicts. When everyone must serve, especially children of the rich and powerful, we think twice before "spending" the lives of our youth.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #34
    Member Matt_s's Avatar
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    Slavery, while perhaps technically accurate, is hyperbole in the context of slavery as an institution.

  5. #35
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Having an "all-volunteer force" is one of the greatest justifications for (and enablers of) involvement in ill-conceived conflicts. When everyone must serve, especially children of the rich and powerful, we think twice before "spending" the lives of our youth.
    Granted, that never stopped the U.S.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  6. #36
    Senior Member BAJ's Avatar
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    Last time I was called, I got very upset since it was the busy season. The job here has very few people, the loss of me for a few weeks could cost my employer many thousands of dollars per day. I want them to compensate my employer for that. Seriously. That is a moral opinion which is above the law. I have lots of moral opinions which are above the law.

    She told me "contempt" over the phone. I went down and "talked to her" in her office. The result of the conversation was that I didn't have to appear for selection. She'd said I was going to be called again, in the fall, but I never went. Then again, for three years I took mostly all my mail (including bills and whatever) and just put it in the trash can without reading it. I might have missed it.

    Yet, if I ever did go for selection, I'd probably be dismissed...if I wanted to be.

  7. #37
    Aquaria mrcockburn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The jury pool is already biased toward certain groups, and against others. People in technical occupations are generally dismissed, which deprives juries of those most inclined to evaluate evidence rationally and objectively -- and least susceptible to emotional arguments from either legal side. I would actually like to serve on a jury, but would have to reinvent my occupation as "program manager" to do so, as a former supervisor once did.

    It is not surprising that so many people try to weasel out of jury duty. Just look at how few vote, and that usually takes less than an hour. If so many people with poor/no excuses didn't try to worm their way out of it, the courts probably wouldn't be so exacting of those with good excuses, and the effective jury pool would be much larger. If the government really wants to encourage jury participation, it should require employers to treat jury duty as paid absence, at least for the first week, and give them a tax break for it. An occasional stint on a jury should be as commonplace and accepted as missing a few days with the flu, or taking a vacation. As others have pointed out, the alternative is far less satisfactory.
    Like I said - in my case, I don't mind doing some civic duty if I have to, but I do mind when doing it costs me clients (see my above post) - and after checking my planner, possibly my grade. One of my classes has a class debate (in groups), and my section goes on Wednesday. If I have jury duty, then what? It's 20% of my grade. Hopefully I'd be excused for it, but it's just the point of it that I'm irate about.

    So my "American duty" could well cost me two letter grades, and my financial security. My business is reliant on a few profitable clients, rather than volume, since I'm in consulting. I can't afford to miss out. Sure, you can request postponing service, but even that's at their discretion.

    To me, it's foolish to have irate people, against their will, life disrupted because of this - responsible for the defendant's verdict.

    I'm going to make it very clear that I'm aware of my rights to jury nullification. And I'll pretend that I'm a rabid Baptist, and that I believe the Bible ought to be law, and that I believe in the execution of the defendant, so that the Almighty Holy Judge, Himself, can impart judgement, as it is sinful to allow anyone to take the place of God, lest they go to Hell. I shall not allow anybody in the courtroom to sin, for thou shalt love thine neighbor as thou love thyself. If not execution, then jail time. There are plenty of Bibles in jail, and such criminals are in desperate need of the Holy Scripture.

    That should get me out of there fast enough to avoid a ticket for parking in a handicapped space.

    God Bless.

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  8. #38
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    It's only slavery if there is NO payoff of value to you. For me, I value our government and judicial system so it would not feel like slavery to me to fullfill the jury duty obligation, however, there are a lot of people who see money as the only payoff for your time that is valuable. Jury duty pays less than minimum wage or often times nothing.
    I hate the eclipse of all values by dollar values.

  9. #39
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcockburn View Post
    Like I said - in my case, I don't mind doing some civic duty if I have to, but I do mind when doing it costs me clients (see my above post) - and after checking my planner, possibly my grade. One of my classes has a class debate (in groups), and my section goes on Wednesday. If I have jury duty, then what? It's 20% of my grade. Hopefully I'd be excused for it, but it's just the point of it that I'm irate about.

    So my "American duty" could well cost me two letter grades, and my financial security. My business is reliant on a few profitable clients, rather than volume, since I'm in consulting. I can't afford to miss out. Sure, you can request postponing service, but even that's at their discretion.
    You might have your car break down the morning of your class debate, or land in the hospital with appendicitis when you are supposed to work with your clients, or have to leave town for a death in the family. The world is full of extenuating circumstances that prevent us from doing what we want, and discharging legitimate obligations. My point about businesses considering jury duty a paid absence was just an example of how the broader society needs accommodate juror absence from other activities, much as employers must tolerate the absence of reservists when they are called up.

    Yes, as it stands your grade in class might suffer. But if your professor, or university, accepted jury duty as a valid excuse and allowed you to make up the assignment, you would not. Same with your clients. Would they drop you if you landed in the hospital? They should be impressed with your sense of civic duty. The legitimate problems you describe result less from jury duty than from how society reacts to it. (Of course, the more people who willingly report for duty, the more generous courts can be in granting excusals or postponements to those who really need it.)
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #40
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    When I was a TA, I was given explicit policies to follow regarding jury duty absence. They treated it as kind of a big deal and wanted to make it clear that I shouldn't give people a hard time about it. As long as the student was able to produce the summons (or some other document proving that they had jury duty), I was supposed to accommodate them. Since I taught public speaking (and we had regular debates/in-class speech assignments), I simply had to be creative in coming up with some way to let the student make up missed assignments or participation. It wasn't difficult.

    They pretty much make us accommodate much lousier excuses than jury duty. I can't really see any university not being lenient on that point (actually, it wouldn't really be leniency...more like reasonableness.)
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

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