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Thread: Male dominance

  1. #31
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Did I open a can of worms? If so, I apologize...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Definition of "rape culture":



    Can anyone tell me of an actual existing culture which fits this description?

    Even the societies which I can think of which are archetypes of a certain sort of vicious male dominance, for instance those which practice Sharia Law, or those communities in which honour killings or mutilations either have happened or could happen dont fit that description.

    I'm sorry but a lot of this reminds me of radical feminism in the US, the all sex (or at least all heterosex) is rape school of thought, that is a particularly unique cultural scene and often the product of some pretty unique life histories which are bound to have had an impact on the lives of the key authors and opinion formers involved, they generalise their personal experiences as representative.
    Well, I admit that the name is kinda misleading. But the idea is that there are some elements in our culture that trivialize rape, or that has an overly specific definition of "rape" - like how, until not too long ago, a man forcing his wife into sex was not considered "rape", despite the obvious lack of consent.

    Remember that thread here, from last month, I think, about a wannabe comedian that pretty much confessed to raping a woman and was applauded by it? It's stuff like that.

    I'm no expert, though, so take my analysis with a grain of salt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I'm going to address the flip side of the coin and say that women incentivize this almost as much as men do
    - they say "I don't like him, he isn't strong enough" every time they meet a nice guy who will treat them right
    - they "test" men to make sure they're really all they're cracked up to be. the results follow. men can only take so much pestering
    - when they meet a guy who's a real jerk, they usually treat him like gold
    - once they end up in an abusive relationship, they STAY in that relationship (which I may add is also incredibly selfish to any children the couple has)
    synopsis: in general, men who treat women like shit get what they want; men who treat women right get treated like trash.

    this trend, and thus the domestic violence inflicted on the woman's end, can be greatly reduced by
    - if you meet a guy who is a real jerk, has violent tendencies or doesn't treat you well DON'T DATE HIM
    - if you meet a guy who is kind, considerate, polite and treats you well, treat him with respect
    - if you do happen to end up in an abusive relationship, LEAVE

    if we are talking about a relationship between 2 adults, the woman holds the cards here, not the man. if women don't date ass holes, men who are ass holes won't find mates and society will reward men who don't have control issues. it's just like economics, supply and demand
    It's not always easy - or even possible - to leave, though, especially if you have children. Plus, many people who stay on relationships with abusive or manipulative jerks have pretty serious psychological problems - it's hard to be logical in such a situation when, let's say, one has deep-rooted codependency issues. :/
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Definition of "rape culture":



    Can anyone tell me of an actual existing culture which fits this description?

    Even the societies which I can think of which are archetypes of a certain sort of vicious male dominance, for instance those which practice Sharia Law, or those communities in which honour killings or mutilations either have happened or could happen dont fit that description.

    I'm sorry but a lot of this reminds me of radical feminism in the US, the all sex (or at least all heterosex) is rape school of thought, that is a particularly unique cultural scene and often the product of some pretty unique life histories which are bound to have had an impact on the lives of the key authors and opinion formers involved, they generalise their personal experiences as representative.

    Or just possibly you need an extreme example ......


    "Systematic Rape in the Eastern Democratic Republic of Congo

    Often the women are kidnapped while working in the fields13 or on the way to fetch water, food or firewood. Often kidnappings occur during raids of villages by armed attackers, who often come in groups of two to five.14 The victims are taken from the villages into the forest where they are held captive and are gang raped for days or months.15"


    Source...
    http://sites.tufts.edu/jha/archives/50

    Or maybe i am just a radical feminist?
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  3. #33
    Intergalactic Badass mujigay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I'm going to address the flip side of the coin and say that women incentivize this almost as much as men do
    - they say "I don't like him, he isn't strong enough" every time they meet a nice guy who will treat them right
    - they "test" men to make sure they're really all they're cracked up to be. the results follow. men can only take so much pestering
    - when they meet a guy who's a real jerk, they usually treat him like gold
    - once they end up in an abusive relationship, they STAY in that relationship (which I may add is also incredibly selfish to any children the couple has)
    synopsis: in general, men who treat women like @#!*% get what they want; men who treat women right get treated like trash.

    this trend, and thus the domestic violence inflicted on the woman's end, can be greatly reduced by
    - if you meet a guy who is a real jerk, has violent tendencies or doesn't treat you well DON'T DATE HIM
    - if you meet a guy who is kind, considerate, polite and treats you well, treat him with respect
    - if you do happen to end up in an abusive relationship, LEAVE

    if we are talking about a relationship between 2 adults, the woman holds the cards here, not the man. if women don't date @#!*% holes, men who are @#!*% holes won't find mates and society will reward men who don't have control issues. it's just like economics, supply and demand
    I think you oversimplied certain things, and I sure as hell disagree with the assumption that it's easy to leave an abusive relationship, but I find myself agreeing with the gist of this post: a culture that glorifies machismo and asshole-ish behavior, and looks down on a man that seems otherwise is a big factor in the issue. Actually, that in itself is a problem. Why should "effeminate" be an insult?
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  4. #34
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    the fact that you'd pull out a gun if your country was invaded is already a 'male perspective'. i don't think you will understand the reason for male dominance if you don't first analyze this very issue within yourself. i mean it, i think you have to start there (if you are willing and open minded).

    regarding your questions, i think you could try to look at it in a wider perspective. you are saying men have always dominated women but that is not true. that is the paradigm for the last couple of millenniums and that is the paradigm for western civilization. but there were (and still are, although very few) matriarchal communities around. the issue is that history is written by winners, so our vision of the past is forcefully skewed. and because i don't like talking in theoretics, i'm going to suggest a book for you, it's called 'the chalice and the blade', by riane eisler.

    thirdly, if you want to understand why men dominate women you will have to read feminist theory. i mean, these are philosophers that have been dealing with this shit for centuries. can't beat that.

    good night, take care.

    Quote Originally Posted by WildCard View Post
    This was a conversation that has cropped up repeatedly among the female cadets at my local MROTC battalion. More so that we are covering the history of war, tactics, etc. So of course, rape came up. To answer their question, I found it was actually a rather long dig into the past that has yet to yield any satisfactory answer to me.

    During a lot of my digging, I found some of the most famous philosophers as well as Thomas Aquinas viewed women as little more than animals. In fact, in 584 AD, the Catholic church took a vote on "Are Women Human?" 32 votes against 31. Women were proclaimed human by one vote.

    Where did this idea come from? And why have women allowed it to persist? Not to say that we are still viewed as unorganized pieces of amphibian waste, but there is defiantely a double standard. A guy can make twelve "mistakes" but a woman who does the same is considered a tramp.

    I could go on and on, but I have never understood the male need to dominate not only other males, but go so far as to rape their wives and claim their daughters as "war booty." I briefly looked into the Viking way of life before becoming disgusted. Just look at the ethnic cleansing going on in Africa.

    Seriously. Are women so sexually objectified that any invading army is going to abuse them?

    It's like I told my fiancee. If anyone ever invaded the US, I certainly wasn't going to let myself get captured, or caught alone. That is one indignity that I'd save one bullet from my .45 for.

    Thoughts? Theories on this?

  5. #35
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Definition of "rape culture":
    Look no further than music videos to find glaring examples of acceptable rape in society. If you need more than that, join the military and see it there.

    This is the rape culture in action:

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGPCIc4F26E"]Here.[/YOUTUBE]

    Can anyone tell me of an actual existing culture which fits this description?
    It is a culture within cultures... I can't speak for other countries, but I know Americans just don't really give a shit about things like objectification of women, which results in mentalities that concede to rape. The glaring amount of women who have been raped and/or sexually assaulted is testament enough.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Look no further than music videos to find glaring examples of acceptable rape in society. If you need more than that, join the military and see it there.

    This is the rape culture in action:

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGPCIc4F26E"]Here.[/YOUTUBE]

    What part of the video made rape appear acceptable? Is it because it was taped and distributed? Is it because more than one perpetrator is partaking? I have seen videos of Chechen fighters sawing the heads off of their captives, but I never made the assumption that this was acceptable within that society.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by GemPOPGem View Post
    Or just possibly you need an extreme example ......


    "Systematic Rape in the Eastern Democratic Republic of Congo

    Often the women are kidnapped while working in the fields13 or on the way to fetch water, food or firewood. Often kidnappings occur during raids of villages by armed attackers, who often come in groups of two to five.14 The victims are taken from the villages into the forest where they are held captive and are gang raped for days or months.15"
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    the fact that you'd pull out a gun if your country was invaded is already a 'male perspective'.
    How so?

    regarding your questions, i think you could try to look at it in a wider perspective. you are saying men have always dominated women but that is not true. that is the paradigm for the last couple of millenniums and that is the paradigm for western civilization. but there were (and still are, although very few) matriarchal communities around.
    There are no known societies that are unambiguously matriarchal, [1][2][3][4][5][6]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matriarchy
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by WildCard View Post
    I could go on and on, but I have never understood the male need to dominate not only other males
    That's because you aren't one. I don't understand why women do a lot of the things they do. It simply isn't my nature. Also, as far as I've discovered, it isn't a male need to rape our wives and claim daughters as war booty.

    Your question seems more to be about why do guys like raping girls than why dominance is important to guys.

    You should also consider the fact that a lot of the things that make us so concerned with "dominance" are the same things that make us so protective, and no one seems to complain about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I know Americans just don't really give a shit about things like objectification of women, which results in mentalities that concede to rape. The glaring amount of women who have been raped and/or sexually assaulted is testament enough.
    I disagree. What does that even really mean? Most of the time, when people say "objectification" what they really mean is any focus on the woman physically. That's ridiculous. Do we really treat women like an actual object? Rarely, and it's a very far stretch to say that "Americans just don't really give a shit about [the] objectification of women."
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    What part of the video made rape appear acceptable? Is it because it was taped and distributed? Is it because more than one perpetrator is partaking? I have seen videos of Chechen fighters sawing the heads off of their captives, but I never made the assumption that this was acceptable within that society.
    It's the mentality of the arrested.. I meant to say "of rape culture being acceptable", not of rape itself.. But there was no massive uproar of people trying to save these women. People just generally disregarded it as if it was something not that big of a deal. A woman is on her knees crying, because we just don't give a shit enough to do something about it. It's acceptable. Comparing fighters and wars and shit to this isn't what the discussion is about.. it's about if there is a culture out there that thinks it is somewhat "okay" to treat women as sexual objects. It isn't a matter of if it SHOULD be acceptable, or if I think it is, etc. etc. I'm just saying, I think there this, and I think the evidence for it has been there for quite some time. That's all I'm saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    I disagree. What does that even really mean? Most of the time, when people say "objectification" what they really mean is any focus on the woman physically. That's ridiculous. Do we really treat women like an actual object? Rarely, and it's a very far stretch to say that "Americans just don't really give a shit about [the] objectification of women."
    It means that, in my personal opinion, I think Americans engaging in our modern society just don't care as much about things like that. I think the music industry is a great indicator of that (Of thinking of women purely as sexual objects). I'm not saying it as some high-and-mighty I super-care-in-comparison-to-everyone-else sort of way. It's just an opinion. I'm using objectification in the terms it's being used in, or the way I perceive it to be used in, this thread.. To focus on women on a purely physical level in a negative way.

    Your use the word "we" worries me a bit. I never implied that it was these awful men objectifying women. I think women are more guilty of this most of the time. The news report was just the first thing that came to mind since it was on such a massive scale, hundreds of people accepting what was going on around them and joining in.
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