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  1. #11
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    Can you explain how they don't fit? Even in the most developed countries, there's lots of sexual violence, lots of rape or aggressive porn, pressure on women to avoid rape but not on men to not rape, media articles trying to blame the victim, the legal system blaming the victim
    Wat?

  2. #12
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Taking us off topic for just one second, is the converse true too? Can there be such a thing as Good Group Mentality?
    I guess so, like in church, etc. eh.
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  3. #13
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    Can you explain how they don't fit? Even in the most developed countries, there's lots of sexual violence, lots of rape or aggressive porn, pressure on women to avoid rape but not on men to not rape, media articles trying to blame the victim, the legal system blaming the victim, mainstream art featuring victimised women as the norm, high rates of violence against female prostitutes etc.

    In countries where rape victims are humiliated far beyond how they are in Western countries, in some cases being violently punished, the rape culture is rather obvious and enforced by the government.

    Rape culture is specifically referring to how it is all seen as normal. So, for example, yet another woman on the typec vent server mentions a past abusive relationship they had, and no one bats an eye.
    Yeah, I dont believe its accepted or commonplace as these sorts of things make out, I cant comment about all the other vent server users when someone mentions something like that but I know that when I'm in the position of hearing someone mention something like that there's a lot more in play than simply deciding its common place, how could you tell they thought it was commonplace?

    Anyway, I used to have a quite simplistic view of things which would have been quick to rush to support and defend perspectives like this, I dont anymore because experience and my own careful consideration of it all has taught me otherwise. Perhaps there is a national or cultural divide between the US, where a lot of the radical feminist hub remains, and my own society.

    I dont think that rape is a cultural norm in any society, sex and heterosex may be and I would agree that there are instances in which sexual saturation and expectations surrounding sex combine with other social attitudes and the result is rape, its not simply to do with the status of women though but about a more pervasive objectification of others and dehumanisation.

    For my part personally I'm absolutely certain that my attitudes towards sexual norms and mores arent likely to be conducive to a climate in which rape is normative, I'd be curious to discover if sexual violence is more common in culturally conservative or culturally permissive scenes.

  4. #14
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I make no difference between woman or men, I never did.

    I find the op too polemic and full of cowbody mentality. If you talk about past crimes you can include all other crimes as well, like Jews, afro-americans, there is a lot. And if you live in the modern world carrieing a hatred from the past, things will never get better.
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    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yeah, I dont believe its accepted or commonplace as these sorts of things make out, I cant comment about all the other vent server users when someone mentions something like that but I know that when I'm in the position of hearing someone mention something like that there's a lot more in play than simply deciding its common place, how could you tell they thought it was commonplace?

    Anyway, I used to have a quite simplistic view of things which would have been quick to rush to support and defend perspectives like this, I dont anymore because experience and my own careful consideration of it all has taught me otherwise. Perhaps there is a national or cultural divide between the US, where a lot of the radical feminist hub remains, and my own society.

    I dont think that rape is a cultural norm in any society, sex and heterosex may be and I would agree that there are instances in which sexual saturation and expectations surrounding sex combine with other social attitudes and the result is rape, its not simply to do with the status of women though but about a more pervasive objectification of others and dehumanisation.

    For my part personally I'm absolutely certain that my attitudes towards sexual norms and mores arent likely to be conducive to a climate in which rape is normative, I'd be curious to discover if sexual violence is more common in culturally conservative or culturally permissive scenes.
    Rape has much to do with power, and little to do with sex. It's about seeking lost powerless by acting out on someone weaker. So wherever you have people who feel they have no power, you will have more rape, conservative or permissive cultures notwithstanding.
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Wat?
    Yep. The legal pressure is about the same on the potential victim as the perpetrator, not that it can be quantified easily, but unfortunately probably cannot be helped at this point. But it means getting away with rape is easy, and successfully charging a rapist is quite difficult. Beyond that, there's things like teaching the girls in school how to avoid rape, but never bothering to explain to the boys why not to rape, despite explaining why not to commit other crimes. That's beginning to change, which is nice. There's the cultural machismo that encourages behaviour which can easily cross the line into rape and such. This and more adds up to more pressure on women to avoid rape, than on men not to rape.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yeah, I dont believe its accepted or commonplace as these sorts of things make out, I cant comment about all the other vent server users when someone mentions something like that but I know that when I'm in the position of hearing someone mention something like that there's a lot more in play than simply deciding its common place, how could you tell they thought it was commonplace?

    Anyway, I used to have a quite simplistic view of things which would have been quick to rush to support and defend perspectives like this, I dont anymore because experience and my own careful consideration of it all has taught me otherwise. Perhaps there is a national or cultural divide between the US, where a lot of the radical feminist hub remains, and my own society.

    I dont think that rape is a cultural norm in any society, sex and heterosex may be and I would agree that there are instances in which sexual saturation and expectations surrounding sex combine with other social attitudes and the result is rape, its not simply to do with the status of women though but about a more pervasive objectification of others and dehumanisation.

    For my part personally I'm absolutely certain that my attitudes towards sexual norms and mores arent likely to be conducive to a climate in which rape is normative, I'd be curious to discover if sexual violence is more common in culturally conservative or culturally permissive scenes.
    I could tell it was taken as commonplace because of how they responded to it, and because they likely heard at least a few of the other women mentioned past abusive relationships.

    As for the rest, you haven't provided any counter-points. Could you at least explain how cultures like Saudi Arabia's or South Africa's are not rape cultures? I'm putting the burden on you there, because I thought it was normal to consider those two pervasive rape cultures, or at least very misogynistic cultures if one objects to the term "rape culture". That goes especially for war zones and places like the Republic of Congo.

  7. #17
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    I'm going to address the flip side of the coin and say that women incentivize this almost as much as men do
    - they say "I don't like him, he isn't strong enough" every time they meet a nice guy who will treat them right
    - they "test" men to make sure they're really all they're cracked up to be. the results follow. men can only take so much pestering
    - when they meet a guy who's a real jerk, they usually treat him like gold
    - once they end up in an abusive relationship, they STAY in that relationship (which I may add is also incredibly selfish to any children the couple has)
    synopsis: in general, men who treat women like shit get what they want; men who treat women right get treated like trash.

    this trend, and thus the domestic violence inflicted on the woman's end, can be greatly reduced by
    - if you meet a guy who is a real jerk, has violent tendencies or doesn't treat you well DON'T DATE HIM
    - if you meet a guy who is kind, considerate, polite and treats you well, treat him with respect
    - if you do happen to end up in an abusive relationship, LEAVE

    if we are talking about a relationship between 2 adults, the woman holds the cards here, not the man. if women don't date ass holes, men who are ass holes won't find mates and society will reward men who don't have control issues. it's just like economics, supply and demand
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  8. #18
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Wat?
    He's talking about how ads and awareness campaigns are usually about women pro-actively acting to ensure their safety, ie dont dress this way, dont act that way, dont go out alone, dont go out at night, instead of similar campaigns aimed at discouraging men from raping women.

    Personally I think that the one campaign is as insulting as the other, while it makes sense that some people may need to receive messages to take stock and behave with some personal responsibility, ie be aware of your safety, be aware of avoiding temptation if you're a fucktard and cant trust yourself, the vast majority of men are not tempted to rape anyone and women shouldnt have to equate safety with restrictions to their liberty.

    The UK did run campaigns like this, some of the ads I thought were good, although because of the expense of running them they were run on private networks at late hours of the night or daytime or other non-peak times for viewing. They were both aimed at young people, the same scenario, a boy and a girl, possibly boyfriend and girlfriend although I would say that there wasnt anything obviously indicating they where, sitting on a bed when the guy suggests they have sex, she says no, he says he'll tell everyone she is frigid, she balks at this, he is pretty physically aggressive and she struggles free but then decides to give in. Each ad has an imaginary "fourth wall", its transparent and has the boy or the girl beat on it and silently shouting or protesting. The tag line was "if you could see yourself, would you stop yourself", about seeing it from a bystander perspective and knowing it was wrong.

    To me there's a hell of a lot more to relationships and sexual ethics than rape and violence, its pretty awful that its the one remaining area of discourse and says a lot all by itself. If you can confuse sex and rape then you've a pretty low or awful expectation of sex.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    Yep. The legal pressure is about the same on the potential victim as the perpetrator, not that it can be quantified easily, but unfortunately probably cannot be helped at this point. But it means getting away with rape is easy, and successfully charging a rapist is quite difficult. Beyond that, there's things like teaching the girls in school how to avoid rape, but never bothering to explain to the boys why not to rape, despite explaining why not to commit other crimes. That's beginning to change, which is nice. There's the cultural machismo that encourages behaviour which can easily cross the line into rape and such. This and more adds up to more pressure on women to avoid rape, than on men not to rape.
    Are you arguing that men in western society are not taught that rape is wrong?

    Because if you are, I would just like to say that my experiences in a developed nation contradict your assertion.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Are you arguing that men in western society are not taught that rape is wrong?
    No I am not, in case that wasn't obvious.

    Let me clarify further:

    Take Wiki's definition: "a culture in which rape and sexual violence against women are common and in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media condone, normalize, excuse, or tolerate sexual violence against women"

    It doesn't mean that the whole society or culture does this, although that would still fit. There's an invisible "some" after that "which".

    So in the case of what I said to @Beargryllz, it would specifically be that men are not pressured enough, and women pressured too much, compared to the ideal balance of pressure. So for example, pressure on the potential victim is often a wise move ("don't go down that street at night, you might get stabbed"), but in the case of rape, the potential victims are often pressured beyond that, to the point where they are being blamed, to some degree, for the crime, and where putting that excess pressure on the potential perpetrators or other groups instead, would be a lot more effective.

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