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  1. #81
    Klingon Warrior Princess Patches's Avatar
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    Possibly too soon. I laughed my ass off none-the-less:

    “Everybody has a secret world inside of them. All of the people of the world, I mean everybody. No matter how dull and boring they are on the outside, inside
    them they've all got unimaginable, magnificent, wonderful, stupid, amazing worlds. Not just one world. Hundreds of them. Thousands maybe.” -Neil Gaiman

    ~

  2. #82
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcockburn View Post
    Sorry to be an infidel, but wasn't it really his employees that really innovated? From what I read, his guys came up with ideas, Jobs just barked at them until it looked perfect.
    If he hadn't barked, they would have put the shit out instead; instead they had to go back and rethink the problems and come up with something new. He also was working the same long hours (or longer) than everyone else was working as far as I know.

    I guess design/managerial ability is one of those things you only notice when the product sucks. Considering how much shit gets put out by people with tech know-how nowadays (and I work in IT software) because they have no concept of user-centered design, I'm not sure why you're downplaying visioning.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #83
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    If he hadn't barked, they would have put the shit out instead; instead they had to go back and rethink the problems and come up with something new. He also was working the same long hours (or longer) than everyone else was working as far as I know.

    I guess design/managerial ability is one of those things you only notice when the product sucks. Considering how much shit gets put out by people with tech know-how nowadays (and I work in IT software) because they have no concept of user-centered design, I'm not sure why you're downplaying visioning.
    Exactly. I don't use Apple products, mostly because I'm so used to my own hacked together experience. Steve's role in Apple is in design. He was not afraid to dictate the user experience, and his products were better for it, and that's where his success came from. Some people don't care if they need to click something 3 times that only needed 1 click if it had been designed right. Some people like to click things 3 times and get cranky when someone changes it to 1 on them. Some people are not aware of how much the user interface directs how we use a product. I'm guessing those are the people who don't understand the success of Apple.

  4. #84
    Aquaria mrcockburn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    If he hadn't barked, they would have put the shit out instead; instead they had to go back and rethink the problems and come up with something new. He also was working the same long hours (or longer) than everyone else was working as far as I know.

    I guess design/managerial ability is one of those things you only notice when the product sucks. Considering how much shit gets put out by people with tech know-how nowadays (and I work in IT software) because they have no concept of user-centered design, I'm not sure why you're downplaying visioning.
    I'm not. But I think the little guys at work deserve just as much credit, if not more than Steve, since they're the ones that had to think of and implement the ideas.

    He knew what the market wanted, that's for sure - though even then, how much of the guidance was by Jobs alone, and not with the help of a marketing team?

    He's just one part of Apple. Without the peons, where would Apple be? Apple may well survive without Jobs.
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  5. #85
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    I think Bill Gates won the computer war (and all the excess, near-unspendable fortune that goes along with it)
    This has come up. Your point of view is debateable.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrcockburn View Post
    Sorry to be an infidel, but wasn't it really his employees that really innovated? From what I read, his guys came up with ideas, Jobs just barked at them until it looked perfect.
    Jobs was admittedly not an expert when it came to technology. From what I've read of him, he would be the first person to admit that he was more of a hobbyist than anything else. What he was a visionary and an innovator. He was a person who was able to look around, see what technology already existed, and say "Alright, this is where the market is headed 10yrs from now, and this is the product we need to create to build the bridge from here to there." The people who worked for him definitely had ideas, but they were always on how best to execute his vision. Moreover, Jobs was involved with every aspect of the product production lifecycle from conception and design all the way up through supply chain logistics to how the product itself would be packaged. And I'm not even joking about the packaging bit. The man actually envisioned and designed the packing for each Apple product to guide how a new user would be introduced to each component of a product. When someone is involved to that degree with the creation of a product, you're getting into semantics to say that it wasn't "their idea".

    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    Steve jobs: only in America, where we worship commerce, would people laud
    him as some kind of heroic figure. As if business sense, no matter how
    keen, is the same as the accomplishments of Einstein, Schweitzer, Lincoln,
    Jonas Salk, etc...
    but still, RIP. I think Apple computers have taken a huge downturn in quality in the last 5 years, if my Macbook is any indication. But I forgive you for not being perfect, Steve. Your products look pretty and attract a lot of attention.
    Honestly, the man wasn't the greatest business man or he wouldn't have been voted out of his own company at one point. The thing that bums me out is that we lost an artist when that man died. I'm proud to be from a place where we mourn the loss of a great creative mind.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  6. #86
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Ok ..what?

    Person A: I don't care about Steve Jobs.
    Person B: But, He made a big impact on everyone's lives!

    Numbers don't matter. If someone doesn't care about something, telling them that lots of other people care about it doesn't do shit. It's like I have to care about Christianity simply because lots of people are christian. Pretty closeminded, if you think about it.

    Don't get me wrong, I respect Job's achievements. I just don't want to push anyone else to feel the same way.

  7. #87
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcockburn View Post
    I'm not. But I think the little guys at work deserve just as much credit, if not more than Steve, since they're the ones that had to think of and implement the ideas.
    True.
    He was good at creating vision, directing the products to be marketable, and selling marketable products. (I'm not really sure that I can say he was a designer, but more of a visionary. I envisioned my logo, and set the parameters, but the artist designed it). I'm not much into hero-worship when it comes to him, so I only see him as being part of a team, a director of sorts. My S.O. is involved in every aspect of software production and design at his company, but there are plenty of other people coming up with winning-ideas, being involved in the processes, and doing massive amounts of work. It's a team effort, and each person's opinion is considered.

    I think Jobs believed he was talented at what he did, because the money told him so. The one talent he seemed to have was to get people to open their wallets lol.... at the same time, it did bring technology to the masses. I think it happened when people were ready for it, and they were going to buy, either way. Apple was an option.

    He did many things that prove to me he was up for taking advantage of people, and bullshitting them. I would not want to call him a friend. I think he's gross, as a person.

    At the same time, as long as there are sheep, there will be cult-leaders. R.I.P. Steve Jobs.

    I have trouble understanding why people want to worship Steve Jobs. I see him as no different than I do the next "visionary" for any computer company. So what. It's his importance that is over-emphasized. There should be no thread at all, on Steve Jobs. He did not invent anything noteworthy, save the Apple I, and he had lots of help there. (I don't know how much of a contribution he made there). There are TONS of people who have envisioned and developed products that are much more meaningful to history, that will never be as popular, as Steve Jobs. It just proves the power of marketing to the people.
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  8. #88
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    This has come up. Your point of view is debateable.
    Sure, a COMPANY might have ended up ahead, but as far as individuals go, Bill is clearly better at amassing resources, and so he is better at distributing them amongst the poor and unfortunate. He goes around slaying deadly diseases in his free time.

    The point is, trying to compare Steve to Bill, as a philanthropist, is just silly. Of course Bill Gates looks better. He is a much better billionaire than Steve is.

  9. #89
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Sure, a COMPANY might have ended up ahead, but as far as individuals go, Bill is clearly better at amassing resources, and so he is better at distributing them amongst the poor and unfortunate. He goes around slaying deadly diseases in his free time.

    The point is, trying to compare Steve to Bill, as a philanthropist, is just silly. Of course Bill Gates looks better. He is a much better billionaire than Steve is.
    You'd said computer wars in your post, which is what I was responding to. You won't get any argument from me in terms of greater overall legacy, though.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  10. #90
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    Steve jobs: only in America, where we worship commerce, would people laud
    him as some kind of heroic figure. As if business sense, no matter how
    keen, is the same as the accomplishments of Einstein, Schweitzer, Lincoln,
    Jonas Salk, etc...
    but still, RIP. I think Apple computers have taken a huge downturn in quality in the last 5 years, if my Macbook is any indication. But I forgive you for not being perfect, Steve. Your products look pretty and attract a lot of attention.
    This.
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