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  1. #131
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Speculating on the types of dead people is already pretty silly. What conclusions can we possibly draw, and from what source? We know next to nothing about these people, only tid bits and fleeting glances into their minds.

    It is profoundly stupid
    This would extend, then, to live people as well. And if you're not interested in speculating, which can be done reasonably (if not conclusively), then feel free not to do it, but spare us the lecture.
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  2. #132
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    This would extend, then, to live people as well. And if you're not interested in speculating, which can be done reasonably (if not conclusively), then feel free not to do it, but spare us the lecture.
    Of course it extends to living people

  3. #133
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Then take your own conclusions seriously. Whatever other reasons you have against Steve Jobs being an ESTJ, his having "invented solutions" is not a good one by your own logic.
    Well, it is to me. My point was that Steve Job's focus was on invention/creation. He "invents solutions" , as in, instead of fixing the iphone, he told people to hold the phone a different way. That's inventing a solution. He did this type-of-thing far too many times, and as Kdude noted, created his own little reality world, to be an estj. That's what I meant by "invents solutions". I, for instance, would never think of telling people to hold the phone a different way; I would just fix the damn phone. What would an estj do? I don't think it would be that, over and over again.

    In general, if someone makes a claim about a person such as he "invents solutions", it means that it defines the person, not that they did it once. "Inventing solutions" is not something I would claim in-general about an estj; that doesn't mean they can't do it at all.
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  4. #134
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    The difference with Steve Jobs though was he was always trying to make "history". He was always selling a vision. I can't count how many keynotes he made where he explicitly uses that too. And he was never much of a technologist himself anyways. He was a marketer and a people person. He had basic hacking skills, but he relied on Woz a lot in his early years - while Woz left up the bullshiting to Steve. His technological sense was in building teams and recognizing a good idea. Like the time when he first visited Xerox. He saw a little bit of their graphical user interfaces - among other things. In his words, he says he ignored a lot of the stuff they showed him. They were working on advanced networking, object oriented programming, and the GUI. He immediately latched on to the GUI concept and says he regrets ignoring the others. That is typical of Ni and Si, I think.. to hone in on one thing and build upon it. But it's Ni because he got so visionary about it, and created the Mac, and marketed it in a very bombastic fashion.. instantly placing it among an important move in history.. what with the whole 1984 commercial and Orwell references.
    From what you've said here, being "visionary" basicay means being goal-oriented and driven. He was a spectacular pusher...a salesperson and a capitalist. None of that goes against ESTJ.
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  5. #135
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    Well, it is to me. My point was that Steve Job's focus was on invention/creation. He "invents solutions" , as in, instead of fixing the iphone, he told people to hold the phone a different way. That's inventing a solution. He did this type-of-thing far too many times, and as Kdude noted, created his own little reality world, to be an estj. That's what I meant by "invents solutions". I, for instance, would never think of telling people to hold the phone a different way; I would just fix the damn phone. What would an estj do? I don't think it would be that, over and over again.
    Again, unless you accept the implication that ESTJs wouldn't be as capable as other types at coming up with a creative idea, which is bullshit, then this isn't a good reason to say he's not ESTJ. If that's what you think, fine (though I would maintain that you're wrong, and I think rightly so), but be consistent.
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  6. #136
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Again, unless you accept the implication that ESTJs wouldn't be as capable as other types at coming up with a creative idea, which is bullshit, then this isn't a good reason to say he's not ESTJ. If that's what you think, fine (though I would maintain that you're wrong, and I think rightly so), but be consistent.
    I don't think they can't do it, I just don't think it's their primary focus, as I've said. I am consistent, you apparently just didn't read and understand me. C'est la vie.
    I don't consider myself as being incapable of inventing a solution, but I don't think it's my focus. Same with estj's.
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  7. #137
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    I don't think they can't do it, I just don't think it's their primary focus, as I've said. I am consistent, you apparently just didn't read and understand me. C'est la vie.
    That's saying the same thing with different words, and it smacks of rationalization. Dirty, dirty rationalization.

    To illustrate what I mean, I'll give an example where I take another valued human capacity and erroneously tie it to type in a way, like you've done, that makes it seem innocuous.

    Take, for example, intelligence. If I said that ESTJs are not necessarily less intelligent in all cases, but they just tend not to value it and consequently live lives that are not conducive to becoming intelligent, that's just the bullshitter's way of saying that ESTJs are less capable of being intelligent than other types.

    So I don't buy it. Others may, but I'd tell them to find a brain.
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  8. #138
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Again, unless you accept the implication that ESTJs wouldn't be as capable as other types at coming up with a creative idea, which is bullshit, then this isn't a good reason to say he's not ESTJ. If that's what you think, fine (though I would maintain that you're wrong, and I think rightly so), but be consistent.
    Fair enough. We'll agree to disagree on his typing though. =)

    To me ESTJs need to be nudged out of their comfort zones more. And I don't just mean tradition. Could be like my dad running an errand. He might map out an optimal way he's gotten used to reach a destination - and if something unpredictable happens, he loses it a bit. It takes me to get him to simply manuever his way on the road.

    And as far as entrepenuers go, I don't personally know any. I guess some fictional ones stick out in my mind. I kind of think Tony Soprano is ESTJ.. he's got his own familiar way of operating in the world, even while being nontraditional. And if something gets in his way of seeing things, he smashes heads. His uncharacteristic side is more Fi than Fe.. he's not exactly reaching out and being inspiring.. his feelings are centered on himself.. he just wants to be loved, and vents to his shrink a lot. lol

    Ok, bad example.

  9. #139
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    To me ESTJs need to be nudged out of their comfort zones more. And I don't just mean tradition. Could be like my dad running an errand. He might map out an optimal way he's gotten used to reach a destination - and if something unpredictable happens, he loses it a bit. It takes me to get him to simply manuever his way on the road.
    I agree that ESTJs tend to have weird rigidities. Since I didn't know Steve Jobs personally, I can't say whether he was rigid about certain things or not (though I have heard that he was a real strict cunt to his employees.) When it comes to being successful at whatever they want to do, though, they are a type that is capable of stopping at nothing (like Jobs) to get what they want, and this could lead (like it did for Jobs) to a certain measure of megalomania. And I interpret his "inspirational" speeches as a form of grandstanding.
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  10. #140
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    What a shame. He was a good man. What a rotten way to die.
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