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  1. #601

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    Quote Originally Posted by LEGERdeMAIN View Post
    Let's play a game. It's called "Troll or Genuinely Ignorant".

    My guess for CH is Troll, since most people are only Genuinely Ignorant by choice and he's clearly not ignorant(note the use of unicorn farts in describing his mythical Libertarians).
    I dont believe he's either, why would that be trolling? I think he's being unduly generous to libertarians.

  2. #602
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yeah, that's a little like saying its not pollution that's the problem its all the impurities and contaminants in the water.

    It means the same thing. Its capitalism and capitalism is being used as a banner under which organised rich people are pressing harder and harder for more privilege and less and less consequences, including doing away with any existing checks and balances and preventing new ones.
    It's a system where anyone who wants to work for it, has a chance of getting rich. It's a land of opportunity and freedom.

    I think you only see the negatives, and no positives.
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  3. #603

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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    Yes. This is actually what happened to cause the meltdown, from my current understanding. There WERE checks and balances previously. The Federal Government changed the law and redirected funds, so the banks were operating under the new system.
    I think its more than that, some of the biggest economies in the world have given over too much of their economies GDP to financial transactions, so that being the case the banks owned the economy, literally, and could decide to do whatever they wanted in the knowledge that simply allowing them to take the hits they where stacking up would be too devastating for it to be permitted. Which effectively means that the banks own the governments too.

    So like it or not elective democracy has become even more of a sham, its the banks that'll call the shots. End of. Massive democratic deficit. No ones going to be talk about that until the financial deficit is sorted out.

  4. #604

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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    It's a system where anyone who wants to work for it, has a chance of getting rich. It's a land of opportunity and freedom.

    I think you only see the negatives, and no positives.
    Yeah, I play the lottery but I dont believe that buying a ticket entitles me to be rich.

    Did you know that by distinguishing yourself in battle any commoner could join the establishment and become a noble under feudalism? Wonder why there was such a problem with aristocracy...

  5. #605
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yeah, I play the lottery but I dont believe that buying a ticket entitles me to be rich.

    Did you know that by distinguishing yourself in battle any commoner could join the establishment and become a noble under feudalism? Wonder why there was such a problem with aristocracy...
    I think capitalism is a very fair system, if it's enacted correctly, and without manipulation of the system which has occurred. It rewards efforts. I enjoy the freedoms.

    What exactly do you think the answer is? I am interested in your views, because you obviously have put alot of time into study. What governmental system do you like?
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  6. #606

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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    I think capitalism is a very fair system, if it's enacted correctly, and without manipulation of the system which has occurred. It rewards efforts. I enjoy the freedoms.

    What exactly do you think the answer is? I am interested in your views, because you obviously have put alot of time into study. What governmental system do you like?
    It doesnt reward efforts, what freedoms? You have whatever freedoms its convenient for the wealthiest to permit you, see how free you are when the money required to have any choice disappears. Why would capitalism reward effort? It recognises no arbitrar other than price, doesnt matter how much effort you make if your not in short supply you'll not be valued very much.

    What do you mean about what the answer is? To the present crisis? If that's the question I'd say that the international institution of a tobin tax, a tax on currency speculation, would be something I'd support completely, even over in restricted or limited territory, such as the European Union, I'd support such a measure, I'd then support a serious reform of finance, the outright banning of a lot of practices, such as sale and speculation of community futures, bans on short selling, other fiddles to do with the interest and over all I'd favour a proper shrinkage of the financial sector as a percentage of GDP.

    I honestly believe that this would have two immediate consequences, the wealthy couldnt rely on the city as an automatic source of graduate recruitment, they'd probably have more realistic attitude towards the mixed economy and the jobs it can provide as a result, it would also mean that in the place of getting rich quickly slow accumulation could once again become the norm and as a result a lot less of the behaviour that sees fortunes made and lost over night would be a feature of modern economies.

    Then I think that something could finally be done about the obscenity which is board room pay, in the UK alone boardroom pay increased by 49% at a time when that of everyone else increased by less than 2% and purely by virtue of the fact that this disposable income is restricted to the few rather than the many means that money is circulating less, consumer spending power is reduced, there's no incentive for producers to produce as much because its dubious whether they can sell what they produce. So this wealth inequality has a suppressive effect upon production.

    I think that this inequality has to be corrected by reform but it cant wholly be government action, I think it should be shareholder action too, although I do think that co-management and ratio between the incomes of the most highly remunerated and least highly remunerated should be regulated, so that raises require all incomes to rise, if a company cant act this way then they should suffer a tax penalty until they can, the revenue from this tax should be used to subsidise firms which are conforming to the agreed ratio.

    That's just a couple of reforms I can think of right away.

  7. #607
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont believe he's either, why would that be trolling? I think he's being unduly generous to libertarians.
    I know that you don't think that he literally believes what he stated about libertarians. Maybe I'm wrong though, maybe it's a mark of high intelligence to discount a political philosophy based on a few nuts and eccentrics all while avoiding discussing what they actually believe. What he said is the equivalent of calling every black person you meet a "nigger" because you got robbed by a black guy once. Why are you so intolerant?
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  8. #608

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    Quote Originally Posted by LEGERdeMAIN View Post
    I know that you don't think that he literally believes what he stated about libertarians. Maybe I'm wrong though, maybe it's a mark of high intelligence to discount a political philosophy based on a few nuts and eccentrics all while avoiding discussing what they actually believe. What he said is the equivalent of calling every black person you meet a "nigger" because you got robbed by a black guy once. Why are you so intolerant?
    I dont see it that way at all, although that perspective, the victimised or underdog one, isnt one that I'm not unfamiliar with in association to libertarians.

    Its not a few unrepresentative nuts which discredit libertarianism but pretty much economic history from the beginning of the mortgage bubble in the US and lending to "ninjas" (no investments, no job or assets) right up to and including the present day debt crisis. The promises made about deregulation have proven to be something which didnt bare fruit and the jury isnt out on that, the evidence is in.

    Now, perhaps it would be possible to argue that libertarianism, or neo-classical economics whihch is all it is for the most part, can reign in some parts of the economy fine, perhaps, but it is no panaeca, as libertarians have supposed and truthfully it wrecks havoc when it is applied to any essential services, utilities or industries.

    If any evidence of that is required its there available in huge quantities from just about ever former soviet state which made a quick transition from command economies to oligarchy, that's not so called ugly capitalism but simply capitalism per se. Its the breaks put on it in the capitalist west which make it palatable.

    So given all that its only safe to conclude the veracity and validity of the earlier categorisation of libertarianism, its not simply a trollish attempt to dismiss libertarianism in the same fashion as many of them dismiss socialism or alternatives to their creedo.

  9. #609
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    Yes. This is actually what happened to cause the meltdown, from my current understanding. There WERE checks and balances previously. The Federal Government changed the law and redirected funds, so the banks were operating under the new system.
    The meltdown was an extreme example of what can happen when greedy people are put in charge and given free reign. That results should not come as a surprise to anyone. But the real problem with capitalist dogma is that it pretends that greedy behavior will naturally produce a favorable outcome for society. Thousands of year of civilization has failed to produce an enduring example of such a utopia.

    A proper level of checks and balance would recognize the fact that those in charge cannot necessarily be trusted.

  10. #610
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yeah, that's a little like saying its not pollution that's the problem its all the impurities and contaminants in the water.

    It means the same thing. Its capitalism and capitalism is being used as a banner under which organised rich people are pressing harder and harder for more privilege and less and less consequences, including doing away with any existing checks and balances and preventing new ones.
    What aspects of capitalism do you find objectionable? If we do not tie rewards to productivity, how do we motivate people to work? Do you disagree that self interest a much more effective motivator than altruism?

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