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  1. #521
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Did I mention that I am willing to accepting investments right this minute, especially from trusting clients.
    What does this have to do with anything? I don't have to trust anyone to believe I can make money on investments. In fact, maybe not trusting them would benefit me at times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    So has the janitor. Why doesn't he get 10M/yr? Perhaps it's because he isn't being paid by his buddies with other people's money.
    Because he hasn't put himself in a situation to make 10M a year.

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Not if the entire system is corrupt.
    Basic rules still apply, regardless of a corrupt system, or a non-corrupt system. If people don't like the system, they can stop using it. They can stop going to Wal-Mart, they can stop investing, they can stop using corporations. Yet they still do it. The people there tearing the banks down have bank accounts. They shop at Wal-Mart. They have iphones. They drive cars. They use all of the technologies and receive the fruits that capitalism has created.
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  2. #522
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    Basic rules still apply, regardless of a corrupt system, or a non-corrupt system. If people don't like the system, they can stop using it. They can stop going to Wal-Mart, they can stop investing, they can stop using corporations. Yet they still do it. The people there tearing the banks down have bank accounts. They shop at Wal-Mart. They have iphones. They drive cars. They use all of the technologies and receive the fruits that capitalism has created.
    Yup. They should be out there in furs and shit, otherwise HYPOCRITES.

    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    Makes sense.

    What do you think of the suggestion to make it clearer that it is the corruption they are protesting?
    I think their message is clear already, to the extent that it can be without having a unified voice. The complaint that "they're vilifying everyone on Wall Street, even the secretaries and people who clean toilets at Bank of America!" is an absurdity used as a rationalization by people who have already decided that the protests are worthless or wrong. That's why I don't think adding a "P.S.- we don't mean everyone, just the bad ones, and the system itself" is really going to do much besides ruin the rhetorical effect of whatever slogans they have crayoned on a sign.

    The particular people responsible for criminal activity have already been singled out. The rest is a critique of a system in which corruption is seen as the inevitable conclusion of its trajectory, not individuals.
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  3. #523
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    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    But the fact that many of the protestors are making it sound like anyone who works on Wall St is evil, is drawing opposition that wouldn't otherwise be there if they made it clearer that it is the corruption they are protesting, not the entire existence of banks and big business.
    It's a diverse group with diverse opinions. Not everyone needs to agree on everything. But I think it's not accurate to say that the protest is only against a few corrupt individuals. It's against a system that allowed the culprit to do what the did, LEGALLY. The people who caused the financial crisis are not corrupt in the eyes of the law.

  4. #524
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    What does this have to do with anything? I don't have to trust anyone to believe I can make money on investments. In fact, maybe not trusting them would benefit me at times.
    You seem to be willing to let the corporate leaders spend your investment as they see fit. You don't seem to mind that their pay has skyrocketed over the last few decades without a corresponding increase return for the shareholders.

    Because he hasn't put himself in a situation to make 10M a year.
    Most CEO's did not create enough value to justify that sort of pay neither. They are simply good at gaming the system for personal profit.

    Basic rules still apply, regardless of a corrupt system, or a non-corrupt system. If people don't like the system, they can stop using it. They can stop going to Wal-Mart, they can stop investing, they can stop using corporations. Yet they still do it. The people there tearing the banks down have bank accounts. They shop at Wal-Mart. They have iphones. They drive cars. They use all of the technologies and receive the fruits that capitalism has created.
    One does not need to be against capitalism to be against the abuse that flourish under it when there are insufficient checks in place.

  5. #525
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    You seem to be willing to let the corporate leaders spend your investment as they see fit. You don't seem to mind that their pay has skyrocketed over the last few decades without a corresponding increase return for the shareholders.
    I can't assume that. I would have to research the individual companies I invest in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Most CEO's did not create enough value to justify that sort of pay neither. They are simply good at gaming the system for personal profit.
    Some of them are. I will invest in the ones I see fit to. The ones that look iffy, I won't invest in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    One does not need to be against capitalism to be against the abuse that flourish under it when there are insufficient checks in place.
    Regardless of what we do, people will find what profits them-the-most. More regulations will only mean more ideas to get around regulations. I think if you don't like people finding ways to profit, then you must not like capitalism at all. More regulations will mean less freedom, and I don't think it will make a difference. I have no interest in having a nanny-state with no opportunities. I will choose to take the downsides of capitalism, as I think I have to gain from such a system and not lose. The only way I would not choose it, is if I didn't see a way I could ever gain from it. Why in the hell should I care how much someone else has gained from it? I don't really care if people got rich, and I didn't, unless they did it illegally. My business is in my own situation.

    As far as the bribes/lobbyists, etc., I think that stuff has to end, but I don't think Wall Street should be the focus of that. I think it should be the Federal Government. They stuck their hands in the pie, now they need to take their hands out of the pie. This whole shebang started in 1913, and it's been going downhill ever since.
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  6. #526
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tantive View Post
    Supposedly the movie Margin Call is very good, giving you a perspective from the bankers.
    It is quite good, yes.

  7. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    More regulations will only mean more ideas to get around regulations.
    But that doesn't mean they will.


    I think if you don't like people finding ways to profit, then you must not like capitalism at all. More regulations will mean less freedom, and I don't think it will make a difference.
    Yes it will. Look at the banking system. Canada has much tighter regulations on the banks. As a result, none of them had to be bailed out by the taxpayers.

    I doubt that any capitalists truly want no regulation. They just don't want restrictions on their actions. There's a lot more poor people than rich ones. It would be so easy to take from the rich if there were no laws against that.
    I will choose to take the downsides of capitalism, as I think I have to gain from such a system and not lose.
    Really? Deregulation allowed your banks to gamble recklessly in order to enrich the privileged insiders. They made millions but the banks were left in dire straits and had to be bailed out with your hard earned money.

    Why in the hell should I care how much someone else has gained from it?
    Because their gain is your loss, in too many cases.

    I don't really care if people got rich, and I didn't, unless they did it illegally. My business is in my own situation.
    Just because something is legal does not mean that it is ethical. Laws can be bought. Look at North Korea. Under their law, it is legal to kill people for speaking out against the dictator.

    As far as the bribes/lobbyists, etc., I think that stuff has to end, but I don't think Wall Street should be the focus of that. I think it should be the Federal Government. They stuck their hands in the pie, now they need to take their hands out of the pie.
    Wall Street money bought and continues to buy the government. They are the proper target.

  8. #528
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    But that doesn't mean they will.
    Lol, they always have, and they always will.


    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Yes it will. Look at the banking system. Canada has much tighter regulations on the banks. As a result, none of them had to be bailed out by the taxpayers.
    Canada is not the US. They are much more socialized than we are. They didn't have any investments or growth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    I doubt that any capitalists truly want no regulation. They just don't want restrictions on their actions. There's a lot more poor people than rich ones. It would be so easy to take from the rich if there were no laws against that.
    That's not true. Many capitalists want the Federal Government to take their hands out of the pie.


    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Really? Deregulation allowed your banks to gamble recklessly in order to enrich the privileged insiders. They made millions but the banks were left in dire straits and had to be bailed out with your hard earned money.
    They paid back that money, with interest. Deregulation was not the cause of the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Because their gain is your loss, in too many cases.
    I don't really understand this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Just because something is legal does not mean that it is ethical. Laws can be bought. Look at North Korea. Under their law, it is legal to kill people for speaking out against the dictator.
    And?

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Wall Street money bought and continues to buy the government. They are the proper target.
    Nope. Wall Street and corps were fine until 1913, when the gov't starting passing laws to allow them to stick their hands into the pie. The Fed needs to be abolished.
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  9. #529
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    They paid back that money, with interest. Deregulation was not the cause of the problem.
    In some ways it was. Lehman Brothers, WaMu(being token over by Chase,) and other "toxic" banks. That issue took a chunk off Wall Street. After all, a few of these banks were supposedly "Fortune 500" companies. While many of those banks payed back the money, what has happen has happened. Thousands were laid off to conserved money. That same effect caused a ripple effect in other industries. The immediate one? Housing. That industry in turn slowed down... which mean construction slowed and that ripples onto other areas too.

    If there was regulation in this matter, this may not have happen. The industry may have been a bit more stable (if a bit slow in taking off.) This can be said about pretty much any industry out there. The oil and coal companies? If more regulation were put into making sure they were doing what they were doing in a safe way, there wouldn't be a giant plume of oil filling across the the sea or coal filling into a lake.

    I think of it this way. In-N-Out is a popular fast-food here. They could have easily gone public and mass produce their company throughout the U.S. Why do you think they haven't and decided to build their way slowly across the U.S.? Companies like Krispy Kreme went crazy with building their company, and because of that, many of their business has closed down since they were popular way back when.

  10. #530
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Here's some interesting data from a study done on occupywallstreet.org. The full article is here.

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