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  1. #481
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    I've mostly-worked ever since I was 14 and left home at 18. I earn what I get, and I don't believe the rich should hand me theirs.

    I can shoot for whatever goals I want, and as long as I earn it respectfully, it's mine. I deserve to set my own goals and work to earn a life. Everyone does.
    14 was the age I started working, too. When I was in high school, I started my own business - chartering Greyhound busses for student ski trips to the mountains. I got called into the principal's office for turning 'his' cafeteria into my office. Creating your own job, no matter what age, is not difficult to do. All you have to do is spot a need, and fill it. If one is truly determined, they won't rely on others to hand them a job. But then I was never one to do things the traditional way. There's not much fun in that.

  2. #482
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    Are American CEOs worth 200 to 500 times as much as the workers? Certainly not, if corporate perform was the criteria.

  3. #483
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    And you wonder why I don't take you seriously. Lol.
    Actually this has been studied and MP is correct - the wealthy tend to be born wealthy, particularly in the US.

    Finally, we have data on the limits on social mobility in contemporary America. Even before the financial meltdown and resulting recession, the best evidence we have suggests "that children from low-income families have only a 1% chance of reaching the top 5% of the income distribution, versus children of the rich who have about a 22% chance"; that African-American children born into the bottom quartile are twice as likely to stay there as white children born to parents with similar income; and -- perhaps most shocking of all -- that U.S. rates of intergenerational mobility are now lower than those in France, Germany, Sweden, Canada, Finland, Norway and Denmark.
    Source

    Social mobility also negatively correlates with income inequality:



    Source

    Again I suggest everyone watch this TED talk if they want to see the further negative effects of high income inequality on societies.
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  4. #484
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Every wealthy person I know is self-made. And I know 100's. The 'study' means nothing to me.

  5. #485
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Passing taxes on to the consumer in prices is a problem, although there's always the possibility that a company will not raise its prices at the point of sale but will make efficiencies and cost savings instead or increase productivity to cover the tax expense.

    I mean that is what's suggested when tax cuts to the obscenely wealthy mean there is less revenue for public spending, the public sector spending requirement just doesnt change because there's less revenue, so public sector managers are expected to cover their expenditure with less revenue by making efficiences and cost saving.

    So why cant the private sector? Why is it legitimate to just expect them to add it to the cost for the consumer? See, this is an example of the sorts of double standards which have effectively made theft and corruption THE business norm across most of the western world, its that culture and that business climate which has to change and accepting it as legit is not any place to start from.

    Those double standards and different ideas about desert are just straight forward class struggles.
    Because it's a perfectly legitimate business practice and there's nothing wrong with it at all. It happens everywhere you go, in the ghettos, and on Wall Street.

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Are American CEOs worth 200 to 500 times as much as the workers? Certainly not, if corporate perform was the criteria.
    Not all CEO's make that kind of money. Many make well-below 1 mil a year. There's the exhorbitantly rich, and then there are the "normal" CEO's lol......
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  6. #486
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Every wealthy person I know is self-made. And I know 100's. The 'study' means nothing to me.
    seriously, I'm so tired of hearing
    - "oh, they probably inherited it"
    - "they had a privileged upbringing"
    or my personal favorite
    - "Libertarians are mostly immature white guys or rich people who come from good families." because advocating for personal responsibility and high productivity is something only immature people or those from spoiled families would do.

    most of the people I know who've grown up upper middle class are hipsters who want to rebel against their parents whom they see as greedy and conformist. similarly, most of my libertarian friends (about 10 or so) grew up either poor, abused or somehow underpriviledged. a privileged upbringing =/= libertarian just as an underprivileged upbringing =/= socialist or any other political ideology. for a country that traditionally preaches "the American dream" "rags to riches" and "you can do anything you want if you work hard" I find the amount of fatalism and defeatism going around to be extremely disturbing.
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  7. #487
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    14 was the age I started working, too. When I was in high school, I started my own business - chartering Greyhound busses for student ski trips to the mountains. I got called into the principal's office for turning 'his' cafeteria into my office. Creating your own job, no matter what age, is not difficult to do. All you have to do is spot a need, and fill it. If one is truly determined, they won't rely on others to hand them a job. But then I was never one to do things the traditional way. There's not much fun in that.
    I agree with this. I've spent quite a bit of time working for others and it's not worth the time and effort. There are services and products that people will pay for, all you have to do is figure out what sells. Now that I'm in college and don't have a lot of time to work, I've been looking for products to sell and services to offer that will provide a suitable income and still give me time to get my classwork done.

    I've started several businesses in the past few years to find out what works and what doesn't, and finally found something I enjoy doing(until I get my degree). I bought three old motorcycles for $575. I broke even a couple of weeks ago and I still have a roomful of parts(all profit). I bought a car for $500 and just sold it for $1200 after painting it($100) and cleaning it up. $600 profit. Rent is cheap and bills are low, so it's plenty to get by, but I want more $ and I will get more $, because I'll keep coming up with ideas and working to make it a reality. For an enterprenuer, it can be hit or miss, but the point is to keep trying until you find a niche. If you don't have the instinct to survive, then work at fucking mcdonalds or live behind a public library like everyone else.

    Evaluate your resources, location and skills to determine what business would work where, for how long and how much. Drug dealers do the same thing, so do pawn shop owners, so do billionaires. It's a steep set of stairs but all you really need are ideas and the drive to see them to fruition.

    The only thing that's stopping you is government and yourself. It's a combination of corporate welfare(government intervention), government regulation(government intervention) and lack of drive that prevents the poor from being financially independent. If you can't make something work or, alternatively, be content with poverty, then it's ultimately your own fault. Everyone fails, but you have to keep trying until you find something that works or learn to live with what you have.

    We have a local 17-year-old homeless runaway who plays guitar and sings downtown every friday and saturday night. He doesn't sing well and he only knows four chords but he figured out a way to make $2-300 per night from drunk passers-by. He found a niche.

    I was at a hospital a few days ago visiting a friend and two boys(maybe 6 and 12) were in front of the entrance selling hot wheels to parents who were coming to visit their kids. I thought that was awesome, the 6-year-old was out there approaching everyone to sell off his little cart of toys and sold three in the time it took me to check my voicemail. They found a niche.

    If some underage kids can come up with ideas for making money, why can't adults?

    One thing to remember is that quite a few successful business men, millionaires and billionaires were in poverty as children. Being poor forces you to choose between acting like a victim or coming up with ideas to escape poverty, the ones who want to be a victims are the ones you see on wall street protesting and trying to parasitically live off of the government's bloated piggy breasts.

    Antiquated quote seems to apply:

    "...What they have produced, the so-called Generation X, must rank as not only the most ignorant but also the most paranoid and depressive kids ever to infest our Republic...These kids not only don't know anything; they don't even want to know. They only realize, vaguely, that somebody has screwed them out of something, but they don't have enough zest or bile to try to find out who screwed them and what they were screwed out of."
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  8. #488
    Ginkgo
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    It's a strange world. Some people get rich and other people eat shit and die.

  9. #489
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    I've always wondered what any of this personal "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" ethos shit has to do with questions of how to improve society. Of course people can in general survive (and even thrive) in any system, no matter how unjust or brutal, if they have enough determination, or the right circumstances, or an appropriate personality, or any number of other specific things that can be taken advantage of.

    But that's not the point; it truly makes no sense to base criticisms of political economic systems on such ideas, because then the only thing you can say is (rather uselessly), "oh, things would be better if people could just be better at this or that." Currently, it's "things would be better if people were not lazy, or greedy, or entitled." Reducing society-level problems to individual character traits obscures real problems by steering criticisms away from the systemic and towards individuals.

    Anyway, apparently the Oakland police issues this rather interesting open letter to the city:

    We represent the 645 police officers who work hard every day to protect the citizens of Oakland. We, too, are the 99% fighting for better working conditions, fair treatment and the ability to provide a living for our children and families. We are severely understaffed with many City beats remaining unprotected by police during the day and evening hours. As your police officers, we are confused.

    On Tuesday, October 25th, we were ordered by Mayor Quan to clear out the encampments at Frank Ogawa Plaza and to keep protesters out of the Plaza. We performed the job that the Mayor’s Administration asked us to do, being fully aware that past protests in Oakland have resulted in rioting, violence and destruction of property. Then, on Wednesday, October 26th, the Mayor allowed protesters back in – to camp out at the very place they were evacuated from the day before. To add to the confusion, the Administration issued a memo on Friday, October 28th to all City workers in support of the “Stop Work” strike scheduled for Wednesday, giving all employees, except for police officers, permission to take the day off.

    That’s hundreds of City workers encouraged to take off work to participate in the protest against “the establishment.” But aren’t the Mayor and her Administration part of the establishment they are paying City employees to protest? Is it the City’s intention to have City employees on both sides of a skirmish line? It is all very confusing to us.

    Meanwhile, a message has been sent to all police officers: Everyone, including those who have the day off, must show up for work on Wednesday. This is also being paid for by Oakland taxpayers. Last week’s events alone cost Oakland taxpayers over $1 million. The Mayor and her Administration are beefing up police presence for Wednesday’s work strike they are encouraging and even “staffing,” spending hundreds of thousands of taxpayer dollars for additional police presence – at a time when the Mayor is also asking Oakland residents to vote on an $80 parcel tax to bail out the City’s failing finances.

    All of these mixed messages are confusing. We love Oakland and just want to do our jobs to protect Oakland residents. We respectfully ask the citizens of Oakland to join us in demanding that our City officials, including Mayor Quan, make sound decisions and take responsibility for these decisions. Oakland is struggling – we need real leaders NOW who will step up and lead – not send mixed messages. Thank you for listening.
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  10. #490
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Every wealthy person I know is self-made. And I know 100's. The 'study' means nothing to me.
    It might come down to how you define both wealthy and self-made. I tend to think, however, that large scale empirical research is a better answer to things than your individual, personal observation.
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