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  1. #471
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    most rich people were rich when they were born
    And you wonder why I don't take you seriously. Lol.

  2. #472
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Ok, let's think of this from a PRACTICAL pov, for once.

    When JP Morgan bought up Bear Stearns, they got CASH from the government. When Wells bought Wachovia, they only wanted a TAX BREAK. i.e. no cash, just not to be BENT OVER with the stupid corporate tax, so they paid full and good for that merger, but Uncle Sam didn't get as big a piece of the pie, so it was a fantastic deal. JP Morgan wouldnt buy Bear Stearns without a huge cash incentive. At the end of the day, the government was BEGGING commercial banks to eat some of the losses of these investment and mortgage banks.
    How would you feel if the government told you that you needed to go buy a business, but one that has like $250k of debt, which your company will be forced to absorb? Think of it that way, your business is healthy.. and making like $100k a year. Someone down the street is $250k in the hole, but the government is saying you must PAY MONEY to buy this company, and immediately assume their debt. Companies like JP Morgan said the government needed to take on that $250k debt.. or at least most of it. Wells Fargo said they would take the debt, but when they paid $7/share for all the stock, the Government shouldn't tax the purchase ON TOP of taking all that debt! ($7 is hypothetical.. I have no idea how much they paid per share).

    Your company is $100k in the green, the government is telling you to buy this other company that is AT LEAST $250k in the red. Now, when you BUY this toxic company that is failing and has tons of debt, there is a TAX per share you pay for every share you BUY, the LEAST the government should have done is waive the tax in the acquisition! But instead, they just gave a TAX break. They still paid tax on the acquisition.. just not full tax rate. AND they absorbed a SHITLOAD of debt onto their balance sheets, most of which people at the time couldn't even agree what the total loss WAS. Like Paulson was peddling Lehmen Brothers.. saying it was like $15 billion of losses, but then a 3rd party came in, looked and said it was more like $75 billion. LOL, and "pulling out of TARP" means they paid it back.. PLUS interest. MANY banks did not WANT TARP, it was forced on them to stabelize the market. So they had to sit on that capital injection AND operate with some regulations THEY DIDNT WANT for a full year, before they could dump that stink off their balance sheets. If i were a bank in that time, I would have packed up and left this country. That's like Russian shit there, and now they are convincing the people it's the banks at fault there.

    The robo-signing shit is a big bunch of NOTHING but common practice in the mortgage and law fields, and some of it, every other business on earth as well. Wells is not fraudulent, and has done nothing but save it's own ass. This "leveraging" is cutting a decent deal so your business can stay afloat, even though you are taking on debt and toxic assets.

    My business has to pay taxes, and then when I cut myself a check, I have to pay taxes again. Do you think I wouldn't like to get rid of some of these taxes? Well, so would they. And if the government comes to them needing something, I don't blame them for trying to cut a decent deal. I would too. Why? Because I care to stay in business, and to not take it up the ass. So what if they got $1 million bonuses that year...... they've earned them after all that bullshit they went through. They didn't want the TARP money in the first place. Wells was fine, before all of this shit took place.
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  3. #473
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    See in terms of the occupation, is it actually happening in the US?

    In the UK they got side tracked because of a heavy police prescence and have been camped out on the steps of the Anglican Cathedral in London, its been interesting and caused dilemmas for the Church, which is commonly refered to as the conservative party at prayer, and caused resignations by ministers who did not want to be the individuals responsible for calling in riot police to beat protestors into leaving.

    Especially since it is a peaceful protest for the most part, the protestors themselves are mainly very middle class and also the issue of social justice, which protestors say they are demonstrating about, is one which is supposed to have some prominence as a matter of Christian conscience.

    I'm surprised the police and government are even considering getting all Judge Dredd about this demonstration when its been markedly peaceable and lawful in contrast to the protracted criminal rioting which took place recently and the past criminality at anti-capitalist demonstrations in London.

  4. #474
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    Ok, let's think of this from a PRACTICAL pov, for once.

    they only wanted a TAX BREAK. i.e. no cash, just not to be BENT OVER with the stupid corporate tax
    Well when you put it like that it almost appears like the obscenely wealthy are victims. I'm sorry but I'm just not feeling their pain.

  5. #475
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Well when you put it like that it almost appears like the obscenely wealthy are victims. I'm sorry but I'm just not feeling their pain.
    No, I'm just showing from their pov...... they don't like being taxed every time they make a move, just like I don't. Let's face it, they work harder than I do, and they work longer hours than I do. Why do I suddenly believe I should be paid the same? If I want it, I can work longer and harder too, and work for the ability to be rich. I still won't like paying taxes, even when I am. And yes, even small business owners use loopholes.

    At the same time, you took that out of context. A practical pov, means "let's look at it through the eyes of the people who were involved."

    Corporations have reasons for believing their businesses shouldn't be taxed. I'm still working on it lol........ but I do know that for myself, if I do computer repair work, they tax everything I do, and then when I cut myself a check, they tax me again. I'm getting double-dinged.
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  6. #476
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    No, I'm just showing from their pov...... they don't like being taxed every time they make a move, just like I don't. Let's face it, they work harder than I do, and they work longer hours than I do. Why do I suddenly believe I should be paid the same? If I want it, I can work longer and harder too, and work for the ability to be rich. I still won't like paying taxes, even when I am.

    At the same time, you took that out of context.
    Really?

  7. #477
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Really?
    Yea, you took two different sentences, and spliced out half a sentence and pasted them together. That's "taking it out of context".

    Yes, they do work much harder than I do....lmao. Many of them fly all over the world, and work 20 hour days. I see some of them. They've worked much harder than I ever have to get where they are.

    I don't understand why they are so-hated. I think it has a lot to do with the media, and with the fact that people just want more money, and it pisses them off that other people have it and they don't. Many people seem to want to be treated and rewarded equally, regardless of what they do. I've never wanted that, or believed I should be rewarded for things I haven't done.
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  8. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    Yea, you took two different sentences, and spliced out half a sentence and pasted them together. That's "taking it out of context".
    No I meant your assumption that they work harder than you. How do you know that?

    I take issue with the idea that the market's distribution of wealth necessarily have anything to do with desert or justice what so ever.

  9. #479
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    No I meant your assumption that they work harder than you. How do you know that?
    I have examples of that, from real-world experiences.

    -----------

    It's basically what I was saying:

    That in my own business, my business is taxed. What do I do? I raise the price in order to cover the tax. Basically, a corp just does this on a larger level. So, the consumer basically absorbs the tax. It's just another way of getting money rolling into the government. Why do I care? I really don't, because I'm not absorbing the tax anyway. So I may as well shut up and not say anything about it, lest people might label me "evil" for not absorbing the tax myself. I should say, "Oh, I would NEVER allow the consumer to absorb the taxes. We love paying taxes!" Anything anyone who is rich says, are the words of evil.

    On a consumer level, that means that I am paying more for products everyday, because of the business tax, on top of sales taxes, basically.
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  10. #480
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    I have examples of that, from real-world experiences.

    -----------

    It's basically what I was saying:

    That in my own business, my business is taxed. What do I do? I raise the price in order to cover the tax. Basically, a corp just does this on a larger level. So, the consumer basically absorbs the tax. It's just another way of getting money rolling into the government. Why do I care? I really don't, because I'm not absorbing the tax anyway. So I may as well shut up and not say anything about it, lest people might label me "evil" for not absorbing the tax myself. I should say, "Oh, I would NEVER allow the consumer to absorb the taxes. We love paying taxes!" Anything anyone who is rich says, are the words of evil.
    Passing taxes on to the consumer in prices is a problem, although there's always the possibility that a company will not raise its prices at the point of sale but will make efficiencies and cost savings instead or increase productivity to cover the tax expense.

    I mean that is what's suggested when tax cuts to the obscenely wealthy mean there is less revenue for public spending, the public sector spending requirement just doesnt change because there's less revenue, so public sector managers are expected to cover their expenditure with less revenue by making efficiences and cost saving.

    So why cant the private sector? Why is it legitimate to just expect them to add it to the cost for the consumer? See, this is an example of the sorts of double standards which have effectively made theft and corruption THE business norm across most of the western world, its that culture and that business climate which has to change and accepting it as legit is not any place to start from.

    Those double standards and different ideas about desert are just straight forward class struggles.

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