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  1. #461
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I'm not against private property, or money, or market economics. I acknowledge the historical importance of corporations and the good they have done along with the bad. I do believe I'd rather have worker cooperatives than corporations. I do believe there are some things corporations are currently doing that I'd rather have the government do. And I do believe that for as long as a corporation is running something it should be monitored by the government.

    Does that make me anti-corporation or not?
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  2. #462
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I'm not against private property, or money, or market economics. I acknowledge the historical importance of corporations and the good they have done along with the bad. I do believe I'd rather have worker cooperatives than corporations. I do believe there are some things corporations are currently doing that I'd rather have the government do. And I do believe that for as long as a corporation is running something it should be monitored by the government.

    Does that make me anti-corporation or not?
    Corporations would probably think you were a hippie.
    I think some corporations don't mind being regulated; they just don't want to be operated by the government, and forced into situations.
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  3. #463
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    OK, in that case I will check it out, thanks.

    I support the core cause of protesting corruption, but not the stupid part that is due to lack of understanding.
    See, this is why @ICUP's information simply cannot be trusted (and I see she left out Bank of America this time .) Wells Fargo "innocent?" The bank used its leverage with the government- who needed someone to buy the "systemically important" failing, criminal Wachovia - to get $25B in tax breaks (Hank Paulson made a change in the tax code specifically for this purpose) and another $25B in TARP bailout money, all so that they could buy Wachovia at a bargain-basement price and become the fourth largest bank in the country. Then it went on, like Bank of America, to try and pull out of the TARP program early in order to be able to evade their regulations and use the bailout money to give out bigger bonuses, and also engaged in the same illegal robo-signing shit that put a lot of people out of their homes for no good reason.

    Moreover, I don't see what is controversial about the occupywallstreet.org (which isn't an official site for the movement anyway) statement. It says:

    #ows is fighting back against the corrosive power of major banks and multinational corporations over the democratic process, and the role of Wall Street in creating an economic collapse that has caused the greatest recession in generations. The movement is inspired by popular uprisings in Egypt and Tunisia, and aims to expose how the richest 1% of people are writing the rules of an unfair global economy that is foreclosing on our future.
    Meaning, to the extent that major banks and multinational corporations exert corrosive power over the democratic process, and many surely do, they are fighting against the use of such power. And to the extent that Wall Street played a role in the economic collapse, which it did to a frightening degree, they are also fighting against such practices. I suppose the last line could be taken to be unfair, since perhaps not all of the 1% deserve to be fought against, but again, I think it could be taken to mean, "to the extent that the richest 1% of people are writing the rules of an unfair global economy that is foreclosing on our future, we aim to expose their methods."

    Poor writing? Perhaps. Misguided nonsense? Hardly.
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  4. #464
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    Corporations would probably think you were a hippie.
    They'd be very mistaken.

    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    I think some corporations don't mind being regulated; they just don't want to be operated by the government, and forced into situations.
    What do you mean by being forced into situations?
    Anyhow, it seems to me that most mega corporations actively fight any attempt to regulate them. Their representatives might predict the death of their business if they were disallowed from dumping toxic waste into a swimming hole. Every regulation, you will hear, is the death of business.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #465
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Meaning, to the extent that major banks and multinational corporations exert corrosive power over the democratic process, and many surely do, they are fighting against the use of such power. And to the extent that Wall Street played a role in the economic collapse, which it did to a frightening degree, they are also fighting against such practices. I suppose the last line could be taken to be unfair, since perhaps not all of the 1% deserve to be fought against, but again, I think it could be taken to mean, "to the extent that the richest 1% of people are writing the rules of an unfair global economy that is foreclosing on our future, we aim to expose their methods."

    Poor writing? Perhaps. Misguided nonsense? Hardly.
    I agree.

    (I didn't comment on the rest because I'm going to read up on it more later when I have time.)

  6. #466
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I'm note sure what the answer to that is because I really have no clue what "capitalist dream" means.
    Starting up Starbucks was someone's capitalist dream, right? Is that different to you than Castro's dream of liberating Cuba from capitalist oppression back in the late 1950s?

    "As a socialist, Castro believes strongly in converting Cuba, and the wider world, from a capitalist system in which business and industry is owned by private individuals and organisations, into a socialist system in which all business and industry are owned by the state on behalf of the populace." Wikipedia

    And -Do you know who the group Adbusters is?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #467
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I read what your saying as "people who voice a political complain aren't worth my time, and the ones least worth my time are the ones I disagree with".
    No. Get it right. You, aren't worth my time. You. I made that decision years ago.
    If you want to read things into my posts that are not there, that's your problem.

  8. #468
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    But to get more to the core of the point here, I read what your saying as "people who voice a political complain aren't worth my time, and the ones least worth my time are the ones I disagree with".
    I don't agree with some of your political views but that's also what I read that as. Jeez.

  9. #469
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    "In spring 2010 news stories begin to emerge detailing erroneous foreclosures and evictions, including banks variously foreclosing on homes which were paid for without a mortgage, accidentally foreclosing on the wrong home, and providing fraudulent documentation in courts.[6] Many of the frauds and abuses being investigated in foreclosuregate were first identified over a dozen years ago by consumer advocate, Nye Lavalle.
    [edit] Robo-signing controversy

    In the fall of 2010, major U.S. lenders such as JP Morgan Chase,[7] Ally Financial f/k/a GMAC, and Bank of America[8] suspended judicial and non-judicial foreclosures across the United States over the potentially fraudulent practice of robo-signing, a practice first identified and reported in a 1999 white paper by Nye Lavalle titled "21st Century Loan Sharks."[9] However, the term robo-signer was first coined by attorney Matthew Weidner of Florida.

    In an October 21, 2010 Wall Street Journal Article titled "Niche Lawyers Spawned Housing Fracas" the Journal reports that foreclosure lawyer/advocates, Thomas Ice and Matthew Weidner, were discussing the deposition testimony of employees of mortgage employees. "Tom and I were talking, and it was, 'Jesus, they're like robots!'" Mr. Weidner says. Mr. Weidner, a blogger, on January 8, 2010 wrote a blog post with an appellation for the routine signers. "We know from depositions taken of these 'robo signers,'" he wrote, "that they don't even read the documents placed in front of them and the notaries and witnesses that are supposed to watch them as they sign are not present." This conclusion paralleled Lavalle's findings a decade earlier.[10]

    The terms robo-signing and robo-signers then gained wider exposure by other mortgage fraud activists Michael Redman and Lisa Epstein via their blogs.[11] Robo-signing is a term used by consumer advocates to describe the robotic process of the mass production of false and forged execution of mortgage assignments, satisfactions, affidavits and other legal documents related to mortgage foreclosures and legal matters being created by persons without knowledge of the facts being attested to. It also includes accusations of notary fraud wherein the notaries pre and/or post notarize the affidavits and signatures of so-called robo-signers.

    On July 18, 2011, the Associated Press and Reuters[12] released two reports that robo-signing continued to be a major problem in U.S. courtrooms across America. The AP defined robo-signing as a "variety of practices. It can mean a qualified executive in the mortgage industry signs a mortgage affidavit document without verifying the information. It can mean someone forges an executive's signature, or a lower-level employee signs his or her own name with a fake title. It can mean failing to comply with notary procedures. In all of these cases, robo-signing involves people signing documents and swearing to their accuracy without verifying any of the information."[13]

    Beginning in 2009, the allegations of robo-signing by Lavalle, Epstein and Redman were proven by local Palm Beach Attorney, Tom Ice of Ice Legal, who proved up the wide-scale practice of robo-signing in depositions taken of GMAC's Jeffrey Stephan and other robo-signers.[14] News outlets have reported that on September 14, 2010, Jeffrey Stephan testified that he had signed affidavits which he hadn't actually reviewed on behalf of Ally Financial Inc.[6][15] This revelation led to increased scrutiny of foreclosure documentation. The practice was apparently common practice in the mortgage industry, and was given the term Robo-signing.[6] In the weeks following the robo-signing revelation other large banks have come under fire for employing robo-signers as well, including JPMorgan Chase and Bank of America.[16]"

    Signing without witnesses? Wow, they should be sued! What heresy, those evil murderers. Some of it probably had to do with inept employees, such as foreclosing on the wrong house. lol..... Sounds like people who are being evicted also want to find a way out of being evicted, even though they don't have the money to pay their fucking mortgages, and shouldn't have even been in the house in the first place. Forcing an executive's signature? Every damn secretary on earth has done that....... I suppose every business on earth should be thrown in jail. Do I think it's perfectly right? No, but I don't think it makes a business necessarily fraudulent.

    Signing without reviewing? Hell, I did that all the time when I worked in a law office. I didn't read all of the wills and docs that were put before me to sign. FUCKING SUE ME, BITCHEZ. lol..... I was a notary public too, and I didn't follow all the rules. If they went after attorneys, they would find the same practices being used. There's no time to read every single doc when you are signing docs all day long. And even if you did, you wouldn't catch all of the mistakes.

    I mean, if you're a bank and you have like 3000 mortgages.. and NONE of them have seen a single payment in like 18 months... what is the foul of automating the signatures on all 3000 documents to process them into foreclosure?
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  10. #470
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    They'd be very mistaken.
    With that description, you fit the definition of a hippie-type, and you fit the definition of someone who is pro-something-other-than-corporations, which in their eyes, makes you anti-corporation. Doesn't matter what you think you are, to them.
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