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  1. #401
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    because the government allowed the banks to do what they did legally. The government poured the alcohol; the banks drank it
    The banks are responsible for much of the relaxation of regulations that lead to the meltdown. The two are largely inseparable, and it strikes me as partisan-motivated foolishness to suggest that one must be blamed and not the other.
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  2. #402
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    The banks are responsible for much of the relaxation of regulations that lead to the meltdown. The two are largely inseparable, and it strikes me as partisan-motivated foolishness to suggest that one must be blamed and not the other.
    agree, I actually blame both
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  3. #403
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Who is your favorite philosopher, Elfboy?

  4. #404
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    Maybe us ignorant people can shoot you a loan. On second thought, we'll just make you beg for it and physically attack us, hoping we will throw you a bone.

    No, it's not. I just don't understand people who live miserably, and choose to moan, when they can improve their situations dramatically by taking action, today. Moving worked for me, and that's why I suggested it. You don't have to write off anything that may help you. The one thing I've found about people in situations as you are, is that they will do everything in their power to stay there, and that includes writing-off anything that may help them. You seem to be very critical and stand-offish of anything that may lead to your own financial success. I've noticed that you see no positives in anything, this being one in a line of many.
    Oh go sell your motivational kool-aid to someone else. That's not what any of this is about, and I don't remember anybody asking you for your "help." Seriously, what the fuck are you talking about? "People in situations as [I] am?" When have I ever told you anything about my own personal situation, and when have I ever been "critical and stand-offish of anything that may lead to [my] own financial success?" You are off your rocker, and you're turning this into a personal issue when I've not once mentioned anything about my own finances or anyone else's. This is about broad problems of justice and the economic future of our society as a whole, not about me personally wanting money from anyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    Okay, that's more fair. Which is why it doesn't make sense why people are attacking only Wall Street. The main problem lies in the government, who should be in control.
    People are not only attacking Wall Street (though I still do not see any admission from you that they did anything wrong.) There are protests in DC right now. In fact, Cornell West was arrested for refusing to leave the grounds of the Supreme Court. This is a stupid argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    That's not true.
    It is true. The vast majority of subprime loans were made by independent banks out of the reach of CRA, which had been operating anyway without any sort of disaster of this magnitude since fucking 1977.
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  5. #405
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    The banks are responsible for much of the relaxation of regulations that lead to the meltdown. The two are largely inseparable, and it strikes me as partisan-motivated foolishness to suggest that one must be blamed and not the other.
    Serious question (meaning no snark). Who of these two is obligated to ensure unfair practices do not occur? The bankers or government?
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  6. #406
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    Serious question (meaning no snark). Who of these two is obligated to ensure unfair practices do not occur? The bankers or government?
    Your point? Let's get to it quickly since I already have an idea where you're headed and how to respond if my idea holds true.
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  7. #407
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Your point?
    Direct question. No point, desiring to understand.
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  8. #408
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    Direct question. No point, desiring to understand.
    How tiresome this is. Okay, let's see. Who is "obligated to ensure unfair practices do not occur?" The answer is both. Would you even be asking this question if it were, say, a matter of petty crime? Is the individual or the government obligated to ensure that unfair practices, such as theft, don't occur? Am I not obligated, as an individual capable of managing myself in lots of bad ways (including engaging in thievery), to ensure that I don't fucking rob somebody? By that logic, I'm not engaged in criminal activity unless I'm caught and somebody tells me that what I did was illegal. Well damn, I guess I'll go rob my neighbor because it's the police and the court's job to tell me I'm wrong for doing it, and I think it'll be worth it to gamble on whether I'll get caught or not. And if I win on that gamble, bully for me, fuck my neighbor. They should blame the government for not doing it's job, not me.
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  9. #409
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Oh go sell your motivational kool-aid to someone else.
    Cool, people like you just make it easier for me to make money. Less competition if you have more people who believe they can't join the 1%. Just because you want less opportunities, doesn't mean everyone does. Why should we put a cap on money-making by taxing the rich more? That limits me. It's like throwing-in-the-towel and saying "ok, please give me more of what you have, since i can't do for myself."
    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    That's not what any of this is about, and I don't remember anybody asking you for your "help." Seriously, what the fuck are you talking about? "People in situations as [I] am?" When have I ever told you anything about my own personal situation, and when have I ever been "critical and stand-offish of anything that may lead to [my] own financial success?" You are off your rocker, and you're turning this into a personal issue when I've not once mentioned anything about my own finances or anyone else's. This is about broad problems of justice and the economic future of our society as a whole, not about me personally wanting money from anyone else.
    Yea, "benefiting our society as a whole" tends to include handing more money to people who sit on their asses all day, and less to people who get out there and earn their keep. It's pretty obvious who you are by your opinions and the way you present yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    People are not only attacking Wall Street (though I still do not see any admission from you that they did anything wrong.) There are protests in DC right now. In fact, Cornell West was arrested for refusing to leave the grounds of the Supreme Court. This is a stupid argument.
    THIS particular movement is only attacking Wall Street. That's what they are focusing on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    It is true. The vast majority of subprime loans were made by independent banks out of the reach of CRA, which had been operating anyway without any sort of disaster of this magnitude since fucking 1977.
    There are plenty of statements here from me saying that some banks made mistakes. I don't doubt that Countrywide was fraudulent. I wouldn't have walked into Countrywide if someone paid me. Countrywide was run out of mobile homes and strip malls. They were there to-take-advantage of whomever they could, more than likely.

    And who is paying for all of the damages these protestors are creating for the city of Oakland? The helicopters, the police force, broken shit, litter, filth, then of course, the usual jail term for the officer who struck-back etc. etc. etc. Then, of course, all of the people in this state using Section 8 so they can live beside me for the half the price I pay, people on welfare, etc. If you add it all up, I think the people sitting on their asses are taking out a larger chunk of my paycheck than any bank ever fucking has. Maybe I should start an "Occupy Ghetto" movement.
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  10. #410
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I didn't word that very well. what I meant to say is that to control anything complicated, you need control over all of the variables or things will play out in unforeseen ways. incomplete government intervention only leads to bubbles and unforeseen consequences (some we are currently seeing are food shortages, rapidly decreasing oil supply, higher prices, inflation (devaluing of the currency as opposed to price inflation) lower wages and higher cost of living). the only way to solve these problems would either be substantially more government intervention (ie directly controlling the prices of food, oil, living costs and wages) or to substantially deregulate, let the market correct itself as it will and get rid of any corporations that would monopolize resources.
    So in an anarcho-cap society oil would magically regenerate?

    Everything in economics plays out in unforeseen ways brah. Economists, yes even Austrian Economists, have been empirically shown to be on par with journalists in predicting the economy.


    perhaps the desired outcome for 1, 5 even 10 years, but sustainably? not even close. just look at how many hours the average American works now as opposed to 20-40 years ago when you could just get a 9-5 job, have only one parent work and take 4 weeks vacation.
    So the Economy as a mass cannot be controlled forever, therefore we should get rid of all regulations and interventions in the market?


    economic freedom = power
    if a country's citizens lose their power and hand it over to the government, than they are at the government's mercy. an armed society is a safe, free and polite society. similarly, an economically free society cannot be controlled.
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