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  1. #381
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    It's a lie. If he didn't want money, there would be no money in the first place. He needs to join the 1%, where he belongs, and stop making money off of poor people. I find him disturbing.
    Wat.

    So... because he wanted money, he shouldnt support raising taxes. By that logic no one should support any taxes, at all. I mean... what?

    I feel like Im being Poes Law-ed here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I suppose so. people are capable of so much more than most people think. does everyone who isn't a libertarian feel completely hopeless or something? if there is a problem, people will find a way to fix it.when they have to survive, people suddenly become a lot smarter. when there is reward for their actions, people become a lot smarter. freedom works; controlling people does not
    No, just realistic. I say libertarian magic dust as a joke on the idea that everything will magically sort itself out if you leave it alone. You seem to think that. You seem to think that the market is indeed a magical land of unicorns and rainbows.

    People are not little balls of wonder and joy, people are stupid. If they act smart, nay, if they act NOT-stupid for even a moment it was a fluke.

    Governments are made of people. Markets are made of people. Businesses are not rational they are stupid. Do you see the problem now? And do you understand my skepticism of your belief that Ron Paul will usher in a utopia where the all knowing hand of the market will guide our every step?

    Whenever someone points out a failure of Capitalism you say that it wasnt really Capitalism because it wasnt divorced from reality enough. In that respect you and your ilk are just like Communists. "That wasnt REALLY Communism".

    When you build a structure in an area prone to earthquakes you have to build it in such a way that it will sway with the quake. It has to have certain amount of give or else it will fall. Thats the problem with Libertarianism/Communism, they dont have any give to them. They dont take in to account human nature, sure Communism would be great if it worked as intended, a benevolent authoritarian state dividing up the goods fairly, but it doesnt work that way. BECAUSE PEOPLE DONT WORK THAT WAY.

    Libertarianism would be the best fucking thing since sliced bread if it was in any way compatible with human nature. People are not rational, people are not smart, people are not pure beacons of pure Randian morality. People are corrupt idiots and there is nothing we can do to change that, all we can do is work around it.
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  2. #382
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I suppose so. people are capable of so much more than most people think. does everyone who isn't a libertarian feel completely hopeless or something? if there is a problem, people will find a way to fix it. when they have to survive, people suddenly become a lot smarter. when there is reward for their actions, people become a lot smarter. freedom works; controlling people does not
    Helpless? I think we can control the economy. You think we have to resign to the will of some kind of imaginary market entity. You sound like the helpless one to me.
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  3. #383
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    Oh, I know that some of them were wrong, but not all, and that's my point. To attack the entirety of Wall Street, including innocents, is wrong, imo, and stupid. I want to tell them to "do your homework and have reasons for what you do." Attacking Wells Fargo or B of A was not the way to go. Neither has been proven to have done anything wrong. Both were poised to buy at the points of the meltdown.
    Yes, poor Bank of America. I feel so bad that they're catching flak on the street, even though they made the criminally stupid decision to buy and take on as its own a stinking, fraudulent Countrywide in order to save its own ass from a bad investment (which very shortly after lead to them having to be bailed out), hid $5.8 billion in bonuses from shareholders while they were taking over Merrill Lynch, and then proceeded to increase fees and interest rates, and illegally "robo-sign" foreclosures (in some cases, foreclosing upon people who didn't even have mortgages, resulting in a racketeering lawsuit that they'd eventually settle out of.)

    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    You just seem to concentrate on what "Wall Street" did wrong, I concentrate more on what the Federal Government does wrong. Why? Because the Federal Government has the power to fix it. I'm going straight to the place where the problem can be fixed. I'm not interested in bullshitting around or griefing, but learning of and fixing the problem at hand.
    A lot of the problem would be fixed if criminals were treated like criminals, even if they do take the form of overfed, overtanned, spoiled Wall Street wheeler-dealers.

    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    George Soros and Obama, as Jimmy Carter did, are trying to create class warfare, and it seems it is affecting the public. I think class warfare is useless, and it seems to cause a deviation into fighting-each-other, rather than solving the problems in the federal government. I saw that a new movie just came out seeming to do just that. I think we should all have the proper judging minds to distinguish between bad and good, without devolving into a simple black-and-white struggle. Not everyone who has ever been on Wall Street or wanted to make money breaks the rules, and they are not "evil" lmfao.
    We have had class warfare for a long time now. It's just never called "class warfare" when it's coming from the top-down, just as it's never called "wealth redistribution" when it's coming from the bottom-up. Also, who said that every single person on Wall Street is evil? Are you talking about a sign or something that reads, "Wall Street is evil?" Because that type of sloganeering is not to be taken literally. The basic idea is that those who engaged in criminal activity (of the same sort that your normal everyday fraudulent swindler would no doubt be held in the highest contempt for), which they undoubtedly did, should be held accountable.

    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    Hell, the truth is, if I would've had the skills at the time, I probably would've indulged in a little gambling myself. I think many people would, who are calling "evil". That's the hypocrisy of the situation.
    What a pointless thing to say. "Well, it's fine that the restaurant sold me diseased rat meat disguised as high-quality chicken, because if I were in that position, I'd probably take that risk, too."
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  4. #384
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Critical Hit View Post
    Wat.

    So... because he wanted money, he shouldnt support raising taxes. By that logic no one should support any taxes, at all. I mean... what?

    I feel like Im being Poes Law-ed here.



    No, just realistic. I say libertarian magic dust as a joke on the idea that everything will magically sort itself out if you leave it alone. You seem to think that. You seem to think that the market is indeed a magical land of unicorns and rainbows.

    People are not little balls of wonder and joy, people are stupid. If they act smart, nay, if they act NOT-stupid for even a moment it was a fluke.

    Governments are made of people. Markets are made of people. Businesses are not rational they are stupid. Do you see the problem now? And do you understand my skepticism of your belief that Ron Paul will usher in a utopia where the all knowing hand of the market will guide our every step?

    Whenever someone points out a failure of Capitalism you say that it wasnt really Capitalism because it wasnt divorced from reality enough. In that respect you and your ilk are just like Communists. "That wasnt REALLY Communism".

    When you build a structure in an area prone to earthquakes you have to build it in such a way that it will sway with the quake. It has to have certain amount of give or else it will fall. Thats the problem with Libertarianism/Communism, they dont have any give to them. They dont take in to account human nature, sure Communism would be great if it worked as intended, a benevolent authoritarian state dividing up the goods fairly, but it doesnt work that way. BECAUSE PEOPLE DONT WORK THAT WAY.

    Libertarianism would be the best fucking thing since sliced bread if it was in any way compatible with human nature. People are not rational, people are not smart, people are not pure beacons of pure Randian morality. People are corrupt idiots and there is nothing we can do to change that, all we can do is work around it.
    - 85% of what we do is motivated by reward/punishment, so why not have a system that rewards productivity and punishes stupidity? classical conditioning can be a wonderful thing or lead to horrific deterioration
    - if you people are stupid and government is made of people, how is government the answer?
    - capitalism is needed because people are stupid. people tend to be smarter when they are rewarded for productivity and punished for stupidity
    - yes, people are stupid, and they become 100X more stupid when reward is taken away and consequences are absorbed by the state
    - if people are stupid and it isn't hurting anyone else, that's their problem. the job of government is not to protect people from themselves. that only encroaches on freedom and makes them MORE stupid
    - if we regulate businesses too much, they will move overseas (oh wait, most of them already have lol)
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  5. #385
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Helpless? I think we can control the economy. You think we have to resign to the will of some kind of imaginary market entity. You sound like the helpless one to me.
    for controlling the economy to work, you have to control it completely (aka complete communism) to get the desired outcome. even if this did work, it would lead to obscene amounts of corruption and hoarding. social freedom is not possible without economic freedom
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  6. #386
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    - 85% of what we do is motivated by reward/punishment, so why not have a system that rewards productivity and punishes stupidity? classical conditioning can be a wonderful thing or lead to horrific deterioration
    85? Why such a specific number? Money isnt the only reward you know, Id argue that social recognition and praise are greater motivators.

    - if you people are stupid and government is made of people, how is government the answer?
    A) I never said that.

    B) The answer to what? Pi? The meaning of life?

    - capitalism is needed because people are stupid. people tend to be smarter when they are rewarded for productivity and punished for stupidity
    Youve just described pretty much every business in the world besides maybe a Soviet factory. How exactly are people not being rewarded for productivity today? Besides perhps the bank bailouts how are they not seeing punishment for their stupidity?

    - yes, people are stupid, and they become 100X more stupid when reward is taken away and consequences are absorbed by the state
    Im not sure what you are getting at here. So people arent suffering enough for there bad choices? All the people with student loan debt should just deal with it? If you are unemployed then you need to just pull yourself up by your bootstraps?


    - if people are stupid and it isn't hurting anyone else, that's their problem. the job of government is not to protect people from themselves. that only encroaches on freedom and makes them MORE stupid
    It isnt the job of the government to protect people from themselves. But it is societies job to protect people from extraneous circumstances. Any society that doesnt protect people when it is both possible and affordable can hardly call itself civilized. Also where do you draw the line of stupidity? Many randians would say that if you are poor then you are stupid for not becoming rich. If a man consumes a candy bar that contained hazardous material is he stupid for not taking the time to research every little thing he consumes?


    - if we regulate businesses too much, they will move overseas (oh wait, most of them already have lol)
    [/quote]

    Businesses have moved over seas because starving people without any sense of human dignity will work for less than us. With the exception of perhaps the auto industry which was harmed quite a bit by unions.
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  7. #387

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    Quote Originally Posted by Critical Hit View Post
    Whenever someone points out a failure of Capitalism you say that it wasnt really Capitalism because it wasnt divorced from reality enough. In that respect you and your ilk are just like Communists. "That wasnt REALLY Communism".
    I definitely see a parallel there.

    Most of the kids who're fronting libertarian capitalism these days arent old enough to remember but in the ninties there was an incredible migration from the lunatic fringes of Trotskyism to the lunatic fringes of capitalism, it wasnt just the neo-cons who where former leftists who where capable of changing their stripes for a good government salary.

    A ton of the rhetoric and a ton of the thinking is so, so similar, the "magic markets" are just like the "withering away of the state", it totally lacks any sort of realistic plan for getting from here to there, in the eighties in the UK the labour party used to have crippling internal battles with what they labelled the militant tendency, in the UK and US the militant tendencies effectively took over their respective conservative parties, although in the US and in some of the same social circles in the UK, although it is much, much smaller, the tea party arose as the militant's militant.

    What's worrying is how pervasive those extreme opinions are an how simplistic the discourse, its almost as if it is being deliberately engineered with big money to make it so, to appeal to people who dont want to think too hard about things and arent too troubled by doubts.

  8. #388

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    for controlling the economy to work, you have to control it completely (aka complete communism) to get the desired outcome. even if this did work, it would lead to obscene amounts of corruption and hoarding. social freedom is not possible without economic freedom
    And what happens when economic freedom (sic) impinges on social freedom? Or does it "not work that way", spare me if you're going to come out with something as simple as that. You cant tell me that the exact same sorts of corruption dont exist between rich people in a state economy and rich people in a private one.

    To be honest the dichotomy between state and private is ridiculously dated in most credible economics now, the economies of the world are all completely mixed, they always haven been because at its most basic a legal authority is required to enforce contracts.

    Who controls the economy? Is it uncontrolled where there is no state action? Is it unplanned where there is no state action?

    No. Not even classical economic theory suggests so. The classicals suggest that consumer sovereignty is fact and consumers choices translate into demand, effecting supply and represented by prices. The neo-classicals acknowledge that supply can create its own demand but still affirm consumer sovereignty, Hayek's theories about spontaneous order I dont consider partisan, he tried his best to make them so but they had been the subject of left wing optimism for a long, long time (but who reads those thinkers? Are they still in print? If you see what I mean).

    I dont believe that the interaction of consumers and firms is sufficient by itself to plan the economy successfully, the state will and does always have a role, sometimes as a consumer, sometimes as a firm. Attempting to eradicate public or private planning besides a certain point has a detrimental impact because of their mixed and interdependent character. Even where the contracting and expansion of one or the other has been a goal, rapid change is impossible, even slow change has proven impossible, the jury isnt out on that topic, the evidence is there already from the structural adjustment programmes of the world trade organisation and international monetary fund in the developing world.

    An even simpler example of it exists in the UK where the conservative government suggested that sacking legions of publically employed workers wouldnt have any deterimental impact on the economy because the private sector would expand to employ the displaced people. It didnt. Why would it? The private sector doesnt exist to employ people. The downsizing managerial ideology of the ninties should be a clue to that.

  9. #389

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    Quote Originally Posted by Critical Hit View Post
    It isnt the job of the government to protect people from themselves. But it is societies job to protect people from extraneous circumstances. Any society that doesnt protect people when it is both possible and affordable can hardly call itself civilized. Also where do you draw the line of stupidity? Many randians would say that if you are poor then you are stupid for not becoming rich. If a man consumes a candy bar that contained hazardous material is he stupid for not taking the time to research every little thing he consumes?
    If people wherent stupid there wouldnt be any market for Rand. There wouldnt be any capitalism for that matter.

  10. #390
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    for controlling the economy to work, you have to control it completely (aka complete communism) to get the desired outcome. even if this did work, it would lead to obscene amounts of corruption and hoarding. social freedom is not possible without economic freedom
    No, not at all. It's probabilistic influence based on limited information. A command economy is not necessary.

    If you think that's not good enough to attempt some kind of control, you might as well stop seeking medical treatment, too.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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